Purple CheckDec 11, 2022
lori

A while back I saw an r/woodworking post where someone was asking for resources for woodworking plans. A few people told them to Google it.

If you Google it you get absolute horseshit. Just page after page of useless results. So we need to stop the fucking "let me google that for you" era and recognize that search is entirely broken in the modern day. We NEED human recommendations and information sharing now more than ever.

Dec 8, 2022 at 10:13pmWeb
Show threadloriDec 8, 2022
(I posted about this on Twitter once but just the part about not telling people to Google things without explicitly adding the woodworking story and got ten thousand people yelling at me for "telling marginalized people that it's their job to educate ignorant people", which is part of the reason I am so glad to be free of Twitter because this was the least charitable reading of my point ever and way outside of the scope of what I was talking about)
Show threadLarry GarfieldDec 10, 2022

@lori I am entirely unsurprised by that response, frankly. Twitter is a cesspool in the left as much as in the right.

And yeah, a friendly, contextually-informed human has always been the best search engine. True 1000 years ago true today.

Show threadloriDec 10, 2022

@Crell at least in the past search engines would often send you to the websites of fully informed humans and you could read them and learn things

That hasn't been true for a while now though

Show threadFlaming JuneDec 10, 2022

@lori @Crell You can still find really good stuff via Google, but you have to work at it: ignore the first five or so pages of sponsored shit, rephrase and redefine your search etc.

As you say, you can’t *just* google it anymore.

Show threadrobinDec 10, 2022
@juneussell
I can't even find shit through Google nowadays when I know exactly the page I'm looking for. It's just page after page of commercialised SEO-hackers. I don't know how you're finding anything useful.
@lori @Crell
Show threadFlaming JuneDec 10, 2022
@Crell @lori @nottrobin Well, it is a bit like looking for pearls in shit, and it does often start with a suggestion from a friend on social media. People do still create good stuff; it’s out there.
Show threadrobinDec 10, 2022

@juneussell
Yeah exactly, it's out there and Google is terrible at finding it.

Of course, there's nothing better. Google is the best. That's what happens when you allow monopoly control for decades.
@Crell @lori

Show threadFlaming JuneDec 10, 2022
@Crell @nottrobin @lori Indeed. Still, I’m old. Old enough to remember when there were only encyclopaedias.
Show threadrobinDec 10, 2022

@juneussell
I don't know how our ages compare, but I remember when Google could actually find interesting shit, back when they were actually interested in the problem.

The web was such a glistening, exciting place. How can it be that as more of the diversity of humankind has found its way online, the web according to Google has got so much more boring?
@Crell @lori

Show threadFlaming JuneDec 10, 2022

@lori @nottrobin @Crell I’m 70. When I was a kid, finding info was really hard, not because there was too much rubbish to sift through, but because there was nothing!

I totally agree that info is now treated as a commodity and that’s a new challenge. But I’d still rather be here than there.

Show threadrobinDec 10, 2022
@juneussell
Heh yeah I'm certainly not arguing for the destruction of the internet. Just that it's potential has been squandered by the capitalists.
@lori @Crell
Show threadFlaming JuneDec 10, 2022
@lori @nottrobin @Crell Oh sure. But easier to work with something that’s there than something that isn’t lol
Show threaddatenwolfJan 2, 2023

@nottrobin @juneussell @Crell @lori

A big part of the reason is, that some 20 years ago it was mostly tech enthusiasts who went online. And of those only the really dedicated ones would go through all the motions that were necessary if you wanted to leave your very own mark on the Internet.

It was only with the rise of "canned", low effort sites like Facebook, that people not so much into tech could be present on the net.

Show threadSisAveDec 11, 2022
@lori @juneussell @nottrobin @Crell I remember riding my bike to the library, using an actual card catalog to find books I needed to gather information to do reports for school.
Show threadLarry GarfieldDec 11, 2022
@SisAve @lori @juneussell @nottrobin I was a munchkin when my library switched from card catalogs to ancient PC green screen computers. I have vague memories of the transition.
Show threadFlaming JuneDec 11, 2022
@Crell @nottrobin @lori @SisAve Lol yeah. Happy days!
Show threadFlaming JuneDec 11, 2022
@nottrobin @Crell @SisAve @lori Seriously though. Gathering information has always had its challenges. Our big one nowadays is companies trying to sell us their version. Or at least, having more options for doing so; they’ve always tried.
Show threadFlaming JuneDec 11, 2022
@Crell @SisAve @lori @nottrobin It’s a follow the money thing - as always. Libraries are paid for from the public purse, so not much opportunity there - apart from a plaque with the name of the politician who opened it. Encyclopaedia sales were big business though, and remember how much computers and peripherals used to cost? And then videos - a real luxury item! The internet gave us all the things we used to pay to own apparently for free…
Show threadFlaming JuneDec 11, 2022
@Crell @lori @SisAve @nottrobin But nothing costs nothing. And we pay through the nose in the form of aggressive advertising. We fight it with ad blocks and junk filters, and they fight back with sponsored content and embedding. Of course there are places, like this, where you can escape, but they are still to pay for, through donations and volunteer time. Fragile stuff compared to commercial advertising.
Show threadGenevieve WilliamsDec 11, 2022
@SisAve @lori @juneussell @nottrobin @Crell I mean, a person can still do those things. (Except the card catalog, we pretty much stopped using those twenty years ago.) And for a lot of stuff you don't even need to go to the library building cause it's online.
Show threadFlaming JuneDec 11, 2022
@Crell @lori @nottrobin @welltemperedwriter @SisAve Libraries are still worth the visit though. Quite apart from discontinued gems unavailable elsewhere, look at the buildings! This is Liverpool
Show threadFlaming JuneDec 11, 2022
@welltemperedwriter @nottrobin @SisAve @Crell @lori All information hubs, IRL or online, are wonderful.
Show threadpenguin42Jan 1, 2023
@juneussell @Crell @lori @nottrobin @welltemperedwriter @SisAve The liverpool one is really nice - with that central modern bit connected to the old reading rooms around the side that have some lovely historical bits in. And a nice view from the roof as well.
Show threadLarry GarfieldDec 10, 2022
@nottrobin @juneussell @lori I've been using Duck Duck Go as my search engine for a few years now. Fewer ads, better privacy.
Show threadFlaming JuneDec 11, 2022
@nottrobin @lori @Crell Yeah, I get that. But I *really* can’t find anything on there.
Show threadrobinDec 11, 2022
@juneussell
Yeah I've also tried to switch to DDG a few times, but it never sticks. Unfortunately it is just noticeably worse, and I can't afford for it to be even harder to find stuff.
@lori @Crell
Show threadFlaming JuneDec 11, 2022
@nottrobin @lori @Crell I know. I’d like to like it…
Show threadLynn_from_OKJan 3, 2023
@nottrobin @juneussell @Crell @lori DuckDuckGo is better. Not always a lot better at actually finding stuff but it's at least as good and it doesn't track you.
Show threadMax Leibman has moved!Jan 2, 2023

@nottrobin @juneussell @lori @Crell Exactly this. SEO has been a massive net negative for the web.

To anyone who thinks otherwise, I propose a thought experiment: the second-worst dentist in Indiana hires a new marketing firm. If their efforts make his page perform any better than second-to-last result in a search for “Indiana dentist,” then they have made search worse, not better.

Now multiply this by every company online.

Show threadFlaming JuneJan 2, 2023
@lori @maxleibman @Crell @nottrobin Yeah, that’s where we are. You have to try out lots of different search terms and assume that early results will be skewed by sponsorship. My point is just that it’s still better than not having an internet.
Show threadGordon GuthrieJan 8, 2023
@lori @Crell wait until ChatGPT remixes this giant pool of stinking shit into a new more plausable pottage of lies for ya tho
Show threadFlaming JuneJan 3, 2023
@Crell @lori isn’t that what we’re doing here though? Being friendly humans?
Show threadLarry GarfieldJan 3, 2023
@juneussell @lori Most of us are trying to be, at least.
Show threadcazDec 10, 2022
@lori
I mean even when the conversation is about marginalized people, it's still unhelpful to tell people to Google it bc, for instance, googling questions about trans issues will land them on TERF pages.
Show threadloriDec 10, 2022
@caztastrophe right, I did think of that too lol, you aren't actually teaching them anything. And it isn't your job to teach them anything but if you're telling them to Google it it's about as helpful as just telling them to fuck off so you might as well do that and get the enjoyment of it
Show threadCenobyte Dec 11, 2022
@lori I remember back in the day google used to actually be scarily good at helping you find information. It’s gotten so bad since then. Hard to word things to get info..and this is even using their specialized search tools that not everyone knows about. Not sure what the answer is here since they still dominate search. Maybe someone will come up with something better.
Show threadLunar 🛸 ♾Dec 11, 2022
@cenobyte @lori I just think about how when you google a tech question, 90% of the time you get the same few sites - some of them scrape from other sites and don't do a great job of it, some are SEO bait that want you to buy a product, and eventually you might get a relevant StackOverflow post. It's grim.
Show threadKincaidDec 12, 2022
@lunarloony @cenobyte @lori and you finally find a page with info and it's a damned video with 3 mins of shitty intro and then trying to follow the tiny cursor as the bad narrator clicks buttons 3 times a second...
Show threadLunar 🛸 ♾Dec 12, 2022
@kincaid @cenobyte @lori Invariably in 144p
Show threadCenobyte Dec 12, 2022
@lunarloony @kincaid @lori Oh my go the truth. I hate videos for tech stuff
Show threadNate Mathewson Dec 10, 2022
@lori Also, SOMETIMES THE SEARCH ENGINE GIVES YOU HARMFUL RESULTS. Sometimes it gives you bad health advice or harmful shit that uh... is not great for us marginalized groups.
Show threadWhitmadDec 10, 2022

@lori

The irony is that in the early days of the internet, pre-google, search was broken. Google came along with their pagerank algorithm and everything was wonderful, for a while.

Nowadays, the combination of vast amounts of complete crap on the internet combined with commercial interests gaming the algorithm has put us back to square one.

Show threadsecretslothDec 10, 2022
@lori I ask people stuff all the time and usually if they're actually interested in the subject, they're happy to explain or help out. I am really reluctant to just blindly trust internet sources because, well, they're so often wrong. This is especially true when I'm looking at something like adopting a pet where another creature's quality of life is at stake. It's worth finding someone who cares enough to give some pointers from personal experience, especially in case of questions.
Show threadslootDec 10, 2022
@lori there is an unfortunate need to know the topic enough to be able to filter the wheat from the chaff. For that reason, I don't mind googling for someone to find a reasonable looking resource
Show threadThe DoctorDec 10, 2022
@lori Thank you for saying this concisely and eloquently.
Show threadSpeakerToManagersDec 10, 2022
@lori
I started as an engineer back before WWW, when the internet was mostly chat rooms and MUDs.I was lucky enough to find a research librarian in my company who was a wizard at finding obscure but very relevant papers and books. My position on AI, inspired by that experience and my own search experience since, is that searches need human curators to be optimally successful. And the best searches are based on semantics, not string comparison or Bayesian likelihood of the next word.
Show threadarcepiDec 10, 2022
@lori lots of people abusing the algorithm. Creating webs empty of real content but that get the 'attention' of the algorithm and fill the first pages of results with garbage 😑
Show threadAaron WilliamsonDec 10, 2022
@lori @vmbrasseur can confirm that searching for woodworking plans online is an absolute nightmare.
Show threadmeewareDec 10, 2022
@lori I wonder when we’ll see AI optimised to interact with a deliver suitable search results. Maybe even ‘search curator bots’ in channels like this with which we can interact and get advice- robo librarians of the tubes.
Show threadTofu GolemDec 10, 2022

@lori
What you get from a search is profoundly different from what other people get from a Google search.

Why do so few people understand this?

If Google isn't giving you what you want, that's a good thing. That means it has yet to learn what you like. Otherwise, Google becomes your own personal echo chamber endlessly reinforcing what you already believe.

Show threadAbyDec 10, 2022
@lori - there a really interesting research article that talks about how academic research is now also broken because Google algorithms throw up popular results instead of accurate ones, and as a consequence the same tiny percentage of research papers are cited in everything, even when they're bad research.
Show threadDan VesmaDec 10, 2022
@lori “search term site:reddit.com” is the *only* way to find anything on the 2022 web
Show threadKarlDec 10, 2022
@lori This is why YouTube videos are so appealing to plenty of people.
Show threadJeremy 🇨🇦Dec 10, 2022

@lori The problem is that often when someone is looking for instructions what they really want is some kind of "mentoring."

This can come in the form of a community mentoring new members, or having experts peer review work and make suggestions so as to avoid common pitfalls. Search isn't optimized for that, and has a broken incentive structure.

I don't think search is broken - I think it's just the wrong tool to address what is primarily a social concern. Search works incredibly well for many things (e.g. StackOverflow answers, technical documentation, etc) but absolutely fails at acting as a mentor.

We need to create structures in our communities (online or otherwise) for folks to mentor and be mentored and leave gatekeeping out of it entirely.

Show threadPatienceltdDec 10, 2022

@lori

Telling people "Google it" these days is increasingly like telling someone to drink from a poisoned well, not just a waste of time. (Don't get me started on the YouTube recommendation algorithm.)

I find myself rather dreading the day Google Search hooks up with ChatGPT to provide plausible-sounding *sponsored* content. Or outright propaganda, depending on how interventionist your polity is.

Show threadJohn Skiles SkinnerDec 10, 2022

@lori search engines are feeling pretty broken, maybe because the web is broken. As text-generating algorithms proliferate it's seemingly going to get worse.

Yeah, we need to come to terms with it.

Show threadDenis 🌏Dec 10, 2022
@lori this needs to be boosted a million times. So true.
Show threadPennywhetherDec 10, 2022
@lori Google results are BS in a lot of ways. A search will claim to have millions or billions of results, but if one tests the validity of that by going from result page to result page, around the 20th - 40th page or so a lot of results bottom out and it then says that there are only a few hundred results available, not the aforementioned millions or billions. That's even taking into account forcing omitted results to be displayed.
Show threadWilliamDec 10, 2022

@lori it looks to me that the age of "just Google it" has destroyed the link graph because people search for instead of link to things. So Google wiped out its own value proposition.

Maybe we'll end up with a Yahoo directory again?

At least you can mostly get good results by searching in known forums.