Woozle HypertwinAcid test for any social network or fedi instance:
If you say "fuck you" to a Nazi, who gets banned?
svegress@woozle You. Your language is the offense. You're the one who is making a judgement of what that other person is. Stay cool if you want to have a reasonable argument.
OtterSparx 🌳🍁 (🔜 FWA2023)@ottersparx @woozle Please explain 🤔
@Svegress
I think you're being a bit presumptious in assuming that I'm talking about something I did, since I've seen this happen many times to other people.
On #Nextdoor, for instance, they make it clear that even being rude towards people expressing Nazi-like ideas is likely to get you suspended or banned -- so I've avoided doing so, but I've nonetheless been suspended at least twice for more or less this exact reason. For the sake of argument, then, I am the one saying "fuck you" to a Nazi.
Why is that bad?
@woozle I read Svegress' response as "being rude to Nazis is bad" and that's what I wanted to say was incorrect.
I declined to elaborate because I'm frankly uninterested in debating it, and nor do I believe this should require a debate.
@ottersparx I absolutely agree. (I'm running into a thankfully-small percentage of views like that and am engaging with them only for the sake of onlookers who might need help seeing the BS for what it is.)
@woozle Ah, I misunderstood and thought the last line was directed at me. You're doing good work, I'm just dense.
@woozle @ottersparx Sometimes the way English works allows for misunderstanding. I apologise; I do not suspect you of anything bad. Perhaps we need to bring back the more circumspect "One does" rather than the more personal "You do".
However my point still stands: moderators should act to
curb violent language by whoever, to whoever.
However my point still stands: moderators should act to
curb violent language by whoever, to whoever.
Thank you for the clarification. I think it's important to understand, though, that sometimes what you call "violent language" (in English, "fuck you" may literally imply nonconsensual sex, but idiomatically it's more like "I'm absolutely done with you" with emphasis; it's understood that the speaker actually has no wish for further contact, much less violent intimacy) is the only way to really communicate one's feelings and position.
I think the scenario I had in mind, on some level, is where the other party has been -- using only the most civil of language -- expressing more and more horrible ideas, and moderators have been ignoring reports on the issue.
At that point, one wants to express not just repudiation of the other person's position, but rage that they even consider it a valid position.
"Fuck you" is often the most eloquent way of saying this.
@woozle @ottersparx I think we have furious agreement. Eloquently put 👍
@woozle @ottersparx I thought that this short article in The Conversation would be interesting to you all on the subject of swearing
https://theconversation.com/the-power-of-swearing-how-obscene-words-influence-your-mind-body-and-relationships-192104
Backing this up is research that shows that swearing may be a common feature of all languages
https://theconversation.com/swear-words-we-studied-speakers-of-languages-from-hindi-to-hungarian-to-find-out-why-obscenities-sound-the-way-they-do-192473
https://theconversation.com/the-power-of-swearing-how-obscene-words-influence-your-mind-body-and-relationships-192104
Backing this up is research that shows that swearing may be a common feature of all languages
https://theconversation.com/swear-words-we-studied-speakers-of-languages-from-hindi-to-hungarian-to-find-out-why-obscenities-sound-the-way-they-do-192473
starfall(8)@Svegress fuck you but being a Nazi is more offensive than vulgarity
@starfall Agreed but acting like a Nazi is not a solution. Education about what the implications are is a better way. One of the most profound shocks I had was visiting the information centre on the site of the former Gestapo headquarters in Berlin that specialises in documenting the horrors of Nazism. Thousands of German teenagers are taken on tours there every year to understand where it leads. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topography_of_Terror
Yohannon
Stephanie Zvan
Spike-XLike, I don't want us to get to a point where one person can point at someone, yell "Nazi!", make the Donald Sutherland face from Invasion of the Body Snatchers, and then have everyone dogpile on that person.
My question assumes some level of reasonable diligence on the part of the Nazi-perceiver, and good faith from the majority/consensus.
@woozle Putin claimed that the Ukrainian Government was Nazi. https://theconversation.com/putins-claim-to-rid-ukraine-of-nazis-is-especially-absurd-given-its-history-177959, He is seen by the Russians as a trustable responsible head of state...the body count of his labelling and subsequent action is now in the thousands.
@Svegress That's why I said reasonable diligence is important.
I suspect Putin would not last long in the fediverse; he'd end up on Gab or freespeach.social or whatever.
@woozle True. Tyrants like him can only tolerate those who have the same opinions. The comparison of his regime and that of Nazi Germany is profoundly similar.
toolbear#🪧@Svegress @woozle
Free speech absolutism often precedes Nazi apologetics. Whether you see it that way, you're coming across to the comminities here as doing both.
Most neo-fascists are closeted. The obvious ones are banned. What remains are people like you who seemingly want to normalize fascism. It's reasonable to take defensive postures at ⚠️ & 🚩behavior like yours. In this context the burden is on you to do better.