Bird Mom
Andrew StroehleinNationalism: Being proud of things you haven't done & hating people you've never met.
plount 🇷🇴 🇺🇦 🇪🇺Not in time of war.
GoodGoogleyGoogely@plount @andrewstroehlein depends on the character of the nationalism. Anyone who supports the ethnic supremacist nationalism of the Nazis should follow Hitler’s personal example of April 30, 1945.
David@plount @andrewstroehlein it does seem more commonplace to contribute to achievements when there's a land war in your town. And if all the invaders act the same way it's reasonable to assume they're all like that. Good response, here.
Sjaak K. 🇳🇱🇪🇺🍋Football fan: Being proud of things you haven't done & hating people you've never met.
JamesTDG@sjaakkeuvelaar @andrewstroehlein let's be honest here, it applies to both usages of the name
i speak on behalf of rats@sjaakkeuvelaar @andrewstroehlein it's really no wonder why football fans are often nationalists
Neil Corry@sjaakkeuvelaar @narcyboy @andrewstroehlein
Citation needed?
@andrewstroehlein @sjaakkeuvelaar
I can promise you that the vast majority of football fans are not like this at all.
Igor Hrcek🤘@andrewstroehlein that’s a pretty accurate description :)
halikular@andrewstroehlein You should have respect for your ancestors including their culture and most importantly your friends and family, that’s true nationalism.
Josje Toorop@JosjeT @andrewstroehlein you wouldn’t be here without them and quality of life would be much worse in society. The vast majority of people are improving society in their lives, some do harm but others are doing orders of magnitudes more good than the harm quacks has collectively caused.
@halikular @andrewstroehlein You couldn't survive without the work of people you have never met from all over the world. We are all family.
@JosjeT @andrewstroehlein with globalism this has become more and more true, but it was not the case just 200 years ago when we were living in localist societies of our own soil as peasants (kings and the noble were rich). Even now much of what we have and are is a result of the work from local people and ancestors. Water, food, electricity, healthcare, education. There are exceptions and the technologies may stem from elsewhere in the world thanks to collaboration between different societies.
@halikular @andrewstroehlein Where are you from? Nation states are a 19e century invention. People have roamed the world since ever.
@JosjeT @andrewstroehlein A few have roamed, but the vast majority has lived upon their local land and people, international trade and plundering was not widespread and it was mostly only rulers and their associates that got to enjoy the fruits of this. Again exceptions like the ancient civilisations exist but it was still mostly local and far in between.
@halikular @andrewstroehlein Most people never owned the land they lived on. l have the Dutch nationality. Where are you from?
@halikular @andrewstroehlein Tnx. The Vikings roamed very far, leaving their lands and their people.
@JosjeT @andrewstroehlein Then what share did foreign assets make up of the whole from resources, food, work, inventions, technology, techniques, and ideas that didn’t come from their surroundings? The Viking empire did collapse and I assume it took much of the sailing, raiding, and exploration with it. Sweden produce ~80% of food domestically, ~20% imported. When most were farmers many communities and families were self sufficient on food, much would go bad during shipping.
tuxflo@halikular @andrewstroehlein what if the ancestors were nazis or their culture includes hatred against several minorities?
@tuxflo @andrewstroehlein There have been bad things in the past we’ve improved, but that’s also thanks to *their* work. As a collective they might’ve done 5% and 95% good deeds, we can condemn the bad bad things and focus on the good that got use where we are now.
Should? Really?
Mattias 🏴Nationalism | Definition, History, Examples, Principles, & Facts | Britannica
Nationalism, ideology based on the idea that the individual’s loyalty and devotion to the nation-state surpass other individual or group interests. Although it is often thought to be very old, nationalism did not become a great determining factor in history until the end of the 18th century.
DrJ 
@halikular @andrewstroehlein Why not both! You can be proud of you ancestors, love your family and friends but also love and welcome people with different ethnicities, believes. The one does not necessarily need to exclude the other.
@fakr00n @andrewstroehlein I believe in open borders, but if a country choose to have closed borders that’s their choice. I can’t move to Israel because I’m not Jewish. You should also respect the culture, laws, and customs in the countries you visit and the same goes for those who come to yours. I may not agree with some practices in Qatar, but I’ll make sure to respect them if I ever go there, the same I expect from them in my home country. https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/764778916796129280?s=61&t=1PWjvAN3KIGUBslrkCeofw
@halikular @andrewstroehlein Of course we all should follow the local laws of the country where we are even we don't agree with them. No body is arguing about that. The thread was about nationalism which is often sadly associated with hate of foreigners. In my opinion you could be a nationalist loving your country and culture but in the same time welcoming others with different ethnicity and culture and customs, that's all 🙂
Ty Ross@halikular @andrewstroehlein I have to disagree with you on that take, my friend. I don’t believe someone is entitled to respect simply because they are your ancestor, there are many bad ancestors whether we want to believe it or not. And respect for your fellow man is humanity. Nationalism is dangerous, it lends itself to weaponization under the guise of things like patriotism and loyalty. I think it’s a guilt trip, and a tool for radicalization…
@cooltxchick @andrewstroehlein When I was younger I thought "why would I want to risk my life to defend our country? I’ll just move somewhere else". Since then I’ve realised what I failed to consider. My ancestors, family, neighbours, and community built our city to what it is now. When you build, improve, and make friends you get more attached to a place. Even if I could move, my friends and family might not. If we don’t put up a fight anyone can claim the world and erase what makes us unique.
@halikular @andrewstroehlein And that’s a very fair point
FayeSSpot on.
Blotreport: YES@andrewstroehlein I heard it explained once as: being proud of your country because you were born in it.
Rex Risus@andrewstroehlein I'd say it's a delusion that your nation can sustain itself without the rest of the world, but this is smart. Good show. I'm not necessarily a globalist, because I don't know if I could work with a nationalist or isolationist government, but I concur with this sentiment.👏♥️
Vancouver Black Cat@andrewstroehlein Yeah, sums it up pretty succinctly.
pancakes🔜Bed@andrewstroehlein Really this should be patriotism as things like black nationalism don't work like this.
John BaileyPaging Mr. Stanhope.
Paging Mr. Doug Stanhope...
Brociety Advocate
Dave Snowden@andrewstroehlein that’s one strand of nationalism, but not the only one
@andrewstroehlein historical, material, and cultural context are crucial for understanding the subject of nationalism, the character of American, British, or Canadian nationalism is fundamentally different (chauvinism) than the character of an Irish, Cuban, Palestinian, Kenyan, or Hatian nationalism (liberatory).
Different types of nationalism can exist in a given country. think of black nationalism (liberate the opressed) versus American nationalism (the opressor).
Different types of nationalism can exist in a given country. think of black nationalism (liberate the opressed) versus American nationalism (the opressor).
Hope 🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🏴 SNP
Delacroix@andrewstroehlein Or like Schopenhauer said it: "The cheapest sort of pride is national pride; for if a man is proud of his own nation, it argues that he has no qualities of his own of which he can be proud; otherwise he would not have recourse to those which he shares with so many millions of his fellow men. The man who is endowed with important personal qualities will be only too ready to see clearly in what respects his own nation falls short since their failings will be constantly before his eyes. But every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority."
Grant Gould@andrewstroehlein ... and the quasi-astrological notion that people's moral worth can be plotted out by the position of their birth with respect to various moving lines and dots.
@andrewstroehlein It's not only being proud of things you took no part in, but also acting like you did!
M Douglas Wray@andrewstroehlein - don't forget dying for imaginary lines on maps and waving obscure-symbol-covered flags!
Linda@mdwray @andrewstroehlein This feels harsh on the Ukrainians.
lobster@andrewstroehlein Sounds like a plan … for Nobody I want to no … 🫡🍀🤣🧘🏽♀️💃🏿
Russell 🏴🇺🇦🍉@andrewstroehlein Maybe, so I am a patriot instead! 🏴😜
Intonarumogus@andrewstroehlein Then... why do I have to be ashamed about thing I've never done?
Herr Kryptocommunist@andrewstroehlein You forgot "loving people you've never met"
Frankie Saxx@andrewstroehlein
that made me snort vegan cava out my nose
which kinda hurt tbh
@thomas
JanArz@JanArz
it's spanish sparkling wine made without animal products for filtration! and it hurts going out your nose XD
@andrewstroehlein @thomas
it's spanish sparkling wine made without animal products for filtration! and it hurts going out your nose XD
@andrewstroehlein @thomas
AnomnomnomalyUsually whilst claiming god exclusively told you too.
Liza Brings@andrewstroehlein it's long been my theory that many on the right, including white nationalists, can not explain why they hate so many groups, starting with anyone who doesn't look like them, women who don't look "feminine" enough, gays (even though Jesus didn't tell them that), the press (because #orangeJesus said so), any random Democrat (they are all groomers, baby-killers, and child mutilators), and the notion of being "woke" (see also "the PC police" circa 10-20 years ago)
KCMO Geek@andrewstroehlein and all too often nationalism gives way to jingoism, which is even worse. Patriotism is loving your country, acknowledging historical failings of your country, and working to do and be better than in the past.
Gordon 📀 Data Hunter-GathererOr, in Scotland, wishing for self-governance for your nation
thesweetcheat@andrewstroehlein maybe a distinction can be made between the aggressive nationalism of a powerful nation, vs the defensive nationalism of the people of an oppressed country who seek survival/self-determination. In the UK for example there is a massive difference between English nationalism (which is exactly as you describe) and Scottish or Welsh nationalism. Scottish and Welsh nationalism isn't about hating the English (there are obviously exceptions individually).
ForeignSubstance ✅@andrewstroehlein Too often true, sadly.