ElahrairahNov 18, 2022
Pwnallthethings

One thing that's getting a little lost in this mix, is that some of the people desperately holding on at Twitter are because they are trapped by either healthcare or visas.

That there are systemic traps that trap workers in America so they feel unable to move freely to new employers who want them and would have better pay or conditions is *nuts* and deserves a lot more attention than it gets.

Nov 18, 2022 at 2:04amWeb
Show threadPwnallthethingsNov 18, 2022
It's one thing fearing that you'll lose your salary. It's another that you'll lose the healthcare of yourself and your family or be *literally deported* if you leave.
Show threadDan SugalskiNov 18, 2022

@Pwnallthethings This is the most infuriating and enraging part of all this. It's an excellent argument for universal healthcare and immigration reform.

Doubly so in twitter's case since all these folks are going to be screwed in a couple of weeks regardless. (Along with the tens of thousands of other layoffs we've seen in tech the past couple of weeks)

Show threadJohn DanskinNov 18, 2022
@wordshaper @Pwnallthethings the way things are now is great for employers, so it won't be easy to change.
Show threadDan SugalskiNov 18, 2022
@johnmdanskin @Pwnallthethings Yeah, unfortunately. That's even with large companies paying huge amounts for medical insurance, which would drop significantly if we had single-payer.
Show threadThom SlatteryNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings literally just had a conversation about this with a co-worker - how much employer-based healthcare can trap us in jobs and prevent people from exploring new opportunities.
Show threadKadinNov 18, 2022

@thom @Pwnallthethings
This is by design.

IMO, what the corporatists fear even more than employee mobility is lowering the bar to entrepreneurship and the creation of new competitors.

If I had guaranteed healthcare, there are several times when I'd probably have tried to start new businesses over my career. But none were such a guaranteed success that I could responsibly risk my family's healthcare on them.

And that's the whole point.

Show threadMichael KimsalNov 18, 2022
@thom As a freelance/independent tech person, I've been railing against this for.. 20 years. There's no good 'market force' to resolve this. Basic health care should not be 'market based'. We need universal/single-payer. People saying "I have *great* health insurance!" forget that they only have it while they are valuable to a functioning business. Business fails? Or pivots? You're not valuable. Access to health care should not depend on your value to someone else.
Show threadLong TruongNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings the healthcare folks have some imperfect solutions like COBRA and the ACA marketplace. The H1B folks are so fucked and I feel so bad for them.
Show threadCathyNov 18, 2022
@lxtruong @Pwnallthethings my brother in law was laid off from a big tech company last month. The cost for COBRA was $5k a month.
Show threadBradNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings I pulled 80 hour weeks at Oracle for this reason. it was awful. feeling like you can't lose your healthcare, ironically, to the detriment of your health.
Show threadLiberal Wombat Nov 18, 2022
I had a coworker at my previous job who got bullied into returning back to office because of his visa. It's terrible how it's used as blackmail
Show threadSporticusNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings healthcare tied to you job is a crime against humanity in America.
Show threadClaire 🐇💨Nov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings No idea what health insurance was at Twitter, but it’s Open Enrollment until Dec 15 for ACA. Even if it weren’t, loss of employment is a qualifying event, so people who lose their jobs can sign up at any time. If they’re not offered continuing health insurance, the Twitter folks should go to their state’s healthcare exchange to find plans. Preexisting conditions *don’t matter* - the only questions are age, dependents, tobacco Y/N, and pregnancy Y/N.
Show threadNorthern LightsNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings
Ironically when Musk entered the US from Canada after studying at Queen's, he didn't have a BS degree when he started at PayPal, and according to the research of @capitolhunters posted on the bird site, his friends (Thiel/Sacks, perhaps) finagled a UPenn degree in 'Computational Physics' for him to get an H-1B visa. And he has claimed that hard. For someone who has no sympathy for others now, he certainly seemed to rely on the sympathy (and resources) of his support network in the US at the time.
Show threadthis one guyNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings yeah this is right. the only reason elmo isn't totally fucked already is that some people have no realistic choice
Show threadGreg ChaseNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings Green Cards for high skilled workers and families should be automatic within 2 years.
Show threadSpace Captain Jean-Luc GodardNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings I suppose the sale had a non-compete in it somewhere. Imagine how little work & money it would take for the people Musk made rich to pick up the talent Twitter's losing and make something better.
Show threadJelaine 🥸Nov 20, 2022
@Pwnallthethings It’s heartbreaking.
Show threadCassandrichNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings Indentured servitude was never abolished.
Show threadcharvakaNov 18, 2022
@dalias @Pwnallthethings The terminology changes to keep up with the times, but the concepts remain.
Show threadCranky DavidNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings working under harsh conditions while in fear of losing your livelihood, healthcare, status in the US all at the same time. just crushing.
Show threadCharles Edward MilesNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings I’ll never forgot I spent months working to get approvals for an H1-B visa for an Oracle dev (this was summer 2001). September 11 came and went and my company laid off 90% of staff in October. The oracle dev had literally just arrived in the US and had worked for us for 6 weeks when he got laid off. It was awful
Show threadSirGobbersworthNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings Legitimately appalling the number of innocent people that are going to be hurt over one man's delusional ego.
Show threadtom4okstateNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings I remember growing during the Cold war years and being told stuff like "in the USSR they just assign you a job and you're stuck there.' And then I grow up in capitalist America, Find that in many instances you get a job and you're stuck there. Not saying it's a one-to-one comparison but it's way more similar than you would like it to be.
Show threadDo Not FreezeNov 18, 2022
@tom4okstate @Pwnallthethings And the scary stories about universal healthcare where some pencil pusher gets to decide what care and treatment you get. We've got that here, it's called insurance!
Show threadtom4okstateNov 18, 2022
@donotfreeze My favorite is, 'you might have to wait months' from someone who has definitely not had to see a specialist in America in the last 30 years.
Show threadNowhereland ChronistNov 18, 2022
@tom4okstate @Pwnallthethings Say what... It wasn't THAT bad in the USSR. Well, except that small part where they can arrest and jail you for the crime of not having a job.
Show threadDraxxNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings
Those same things often lead to numerous labor abuses by employers as well since trapped employees can't risk filing complaints.
Show threadLesley Carhart Nov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings YouAreGoddamRight.gif
Show threadAmit SerperNov 18, 2022
@hacks4pancakes @Pwnallthethings as someone who used to be on a work visa I can totally understand the people who are holding on to their jobs there, that is an incredibly stressful situation to be in. How would you define those who are staying? Masochists? Sycophants?
Show threadheridNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings also people waiting for employer sponsored green cards. this process takes years and makes the functional slaves. My former roommate in US (a programmer) was working for a small company who sponsored his green card application. They had constant and large staff turnover but he couldn't leave (and was paid very little). By the time I lost touch with him he's been waiting for 4 years. I assume he got his green card eventually but I don't know how long it took in the end.
Show threadDa_Gut (He/Him)Nov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings I'm about to start a new job where I'll be stuck for a while because of Covid debt (high pay), and healthcare. It's the first decent insurance we will have had for a few years now. There is lots of stuff to get caught up on. (Our old insurance was so bad we saved 1300 dollars by paying for MRI's I needed out of pocket...). #healthcare #healthinsurance
Show threadWayne WernerNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings reasons I am *so* incredibly pro UBI and universal healthcare
Show threadMattNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings yeah, this needs to be discussed much more than it is (which is basically not at all)
Show threadPat bNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings one has a feeling that must have been steerage class on the titanic.
Show threadArrakissianNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings it's cruel.
Show threadMichelle Laverick MusicNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings there is a lot of truth in this. As a Brit who has spent time in Corp America I saw certain amount acquiesce to the power structures merely because to stick one’s head above the parapet meant losing healthcare benefits…
Show threadNic HaganNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings this is very true and unbelievably sad.
Show threadHarold DanielNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings This is very true and unfortunate.
Show threadVirginia HeffernanNov 18, 2022

@Pwnallthethings Matt, you might know this: Do any of the Twitter (or Meta) engineers in limbo do systems, and if so might any of them go to new giant TSMC subsidiary in Phoenix? It’s hiring, it’s visa-friendly, it’s pro-democracy obvs, and fascinating work for the right people. And Apple might soon source from there…

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willyshih/2022/11/16/apples-plans-to-source-chips-from-arizona-is-big-news/

Apple’s Plans To Source Chips From Arizona Is Big News

Apple's sourcing of semiconductor chips in the U.S. is a big step forward for American semiconductor manufacturing.

Forbes
Show threadAdam GonnermanNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings I've been thinking about this A LOT since yesterday
Show threadMadhusudan Katti, he/himNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings This is hitting me hard! I’ve been there, as recently as a year ago, trapped by my visa and having to fight academic bullies from a hard corner. Being an immigrant adds a whole other layer of precarity when one’s job is threatened or the workplace becomes toxic.
Show threadMadelena MakNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings As an immigrant, I empathize of this and that was how I was stuck in the same job for years. You feel like you are locked into sinking with the ship when this happens.
Show threadAbid HaqueNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings Twitter is holding H1B workers hostage, or they risk deportation. This is indentured servitude.
Show threadCykonotNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings
Maybe if we explained the ethical implications to the apartheid guy he would chill out
Show threadNowhereland ChronistNov 18, 2022
@cyko @Pwnallthethings
If by "chill out" you mean increase the level of BS - oh, definitely! The whole point of the exercise is being as big a piece of fecal matter as he can, it seems.
Show threadDuncan Robert SmithNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings I believe the same could be said about much of Silicon Valley. In some ways, Elon is doing what’s expected of every vainly obedient industrialists, just like Amazon, Cisco, et al. The Feds are being totally reckless and getting exactly what they wanted. And it’s just getting started. Many workers will sacrifice so some spectacularly rich dudes can get richer even as they sleep.
Show threadKasumi KakuNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings Elon is effectively using H-1B slave workers at Twitter.
Show threadFinance Toolbox 🧰Nov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings definitely a challenging situation that’s ongoing. Terrifying to imagine the kinds of decisions they’re having to make.
Show threadA Handful of DustNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings And both of the viable political parties in this country are 100% committed to not changing that
Show threadFranz Bibfeldt IIINov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings Petition for all the other non Tesla electric car makers to have an open door hiring policy to all twitter employees.
Show threadBlusoupsNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings healthcare should not be tied to employment.
Show threadevalunaNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings Actually that's one of the arguments for UHC.
Show threadSpace/Tab InterpreterNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings I wondered about this too. They're the ones who will be shat on to keep that ship afloat
Show threadDavid YangNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings i worked at a toxic place and that’s also what I noticed when I left after 9 months. Hiring people through visas has become a trend in those toxic places to keep their workforce.
Show threadcarrielamarrNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings absolutely this, and had been totally lost in the ‘noise’
Show threadKarl Matthias 🇺🇦Nov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings Sadly an international problem (not the health care part) because if you are on a visa anywhere you are more vulnerable than anyone else. If your visa is tied to a specific employer then you are really vulnerable. This is how most countries do it. 😞 The US is just the worst case because it has SO many foreign workers and makes getting a better visa/permanent residence so hard.
Show threadDespairNov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings A lot of people came to the American colonies as indentured servants and it seems we have kept that tradition.
Show threadtoby 🏳️‍🌈Nov 18, 2022
@Pwnallthethings Guns matter more to American voters than healthcare. Just the truth 🤷