David ChartierNov 9, 2022

Whoa whoa whoa...

Whoa.

You mean to tell me that #Mastodon has *zero* algorithms deciding what I should read, and that the vast majority of instances banish Nazis into their own shadowrealm instead of tolerating them in the name of EnGaGeMenT?

Hah! Next you'll tell me there are no advertisers wielding influence over feature design so they get more marketing eyeballs!

Wait, what??!

Show threadKodaNov 9, 2022
@chartier But if they don't build a model to help fund the expense of running servers, this will all got the way of IRC, Email, Newsgroups etc. Users must be the customer in order to prevent becoming the product.
Show threadHans GerwitzNov 10, 2022
@zaskoda @chartier yeah, it’s really a shame how no one uses email anymore 😉
Show threadKodaNov 10, 2022
@gerwitz @chartier okay, let's gets into that. Email is federated. Yet, most people use one of a few big providers who exploit user data to target ads. If you're not paying for the product, you will become the product. Running your own email server is prohibitively challenging, in part because of spam. And spam happens because sending email is free. Charge one tenth of a penny for an email and it would drastically reduce spam. But you want it all to be free.
Show threadDavid ChartierNov 10, 2022

@zaskoda @gerwitz Gotta disagree on the 'running your own server' point.

Running your own *physical* server, in your own garage? Sure, maybe. But I think it's easy to say most people wouldn't want to do that anyway. They'd go to a service provider like any of the zillions of web hosts and even dedicated email services we have, and those are all dirt cheap. No ads, pro-privacy, etc.

(Contd)

Show threadDavid ChartierNov 10, 2022

@zaskoda @gerwitz Do most people want fedi/masto to be free? I think that's a tough call. The network is designed to prefer lots of small instances (over 1,100 now), which are relatively cheap to run.

Many of them start up Patreons to cover the costs. If they get large enough, it grows to cover mods. It seems to be working quite well so far. I don't see any imminent threat of advertising or other insidious funding mechanisms.

Show threadKodaNov 10, 2022
@chartier @gerwitz having to resort to Patreon demonstrates the problem. If Mastodon takes off, someone will become a big service provider and consolidate users, just like email. Then they will exploit that user base. Sure there will be alternatives, but it'll be such an inferior experience that few people will even consider them, just like email.
Show threadKodaNov 10, 2022
@chartier @gerwitz we've been down this path. People don't use federated IRC, they use Slack or Teams. People don't use federated news groups, they use Facebook. What Mastodon has done is well excited, but not new. And there's nothing here to prevent the same fate from befalling Mastodon. If you're not the customer, you become the product.
Show threadDavid ChartierNov 10, 2022

@zaskoda @gerwitz Dude at this point it feels like you're just ignoring everything they've been doing different, the potential that *is* here, and the years of growth and experience down these paths that have already happened in Fedi.

If you're stuck on doom and gloom, well that's certainly a take. But I'm here because I believe in it and I'm trying to help in a few places where I can. This is the part of the conversation where I hop off.

Show threadKoda
@chartier @gerwitz I agree, the potential is there. But there's a key problem left unsolved. The place I'm coming from is better explained by Jaron Lanier. His book "who owns the future" digs deep into the issues in clearly failing to communicate. Even if you're frustrated with me, I still think you'll be glad you read it. Take care.
Nov 10, 2022 at 5:08pmMastodon for Android
Show threadPhilNov 10, 2022
@zaskoda @chartier @gerwitz Any book describing the future is a complete fictional hypothesis. Why would anyone talk about it as though it were gospel truth?
Show threadKodaNov 10, 2022
@Phil_C @chartier @gerwitz not sure where you're getting this gospel thing from. My recommendation for the book still stands. You're welcome to ignore it.
Show threadPhilNov 10, 2022
@zaskoda @chartier @gerwitz I'm merely saying it's a hypothesised work of fiction. I wonder if anyone wrote a book about how Twitter was bought by a weird billionaire using Saudi money only for it to tank as a result.
Probably not, because the future is rarely as we predict it.
It could be a well written book but it's all navel gazing fiction, in which case why wouldn't read some proper science fiction instead.