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While I'm typing out my novice thoughts on #digitalhistory #digitalhumanities have we stopped to consider the problem of our permanent tenant-style inhabitance of the internet? I can buy any number of things IRL and own them forever, but none of them are web space. Web space must be maintained monthly/yearly or exploited by a site paying those fees.

My smart tech partner @JeromeySims points out that I could own a slice of the web if I owned the physical tech and connection itself. What a massive hurdle to ensure my permanent ownership (or space, really -- I don't need to be a settler in the internet space).

This is like if I spent years building a house and, if I didn't pay my mortgage one month, someone came and burned it and its contents to the ground leaving only pictures of it on archive.org. #histodons @histodons

Nov 9, 2022 at 4:11pmWeb
Show threadnullNov 9, 2022
@JeromeySims @histodons It seems like part of the issue is that we treat web development similar to phone numbers rather than true content publication. This is a hurdle for permanence in scholarship and one that clearly needs to be addressed.
Show threadJeromey Sims (Moved 2 BlueSky)Nov 9, 2022
@micah @histodons Also... what about versioning? Say you *did* have a permanent-ish place online, but then you sold it or otherwise intended to transfer ownership, how is that reflected on the property itself? Domain registration/DNS history are the tech ways I could think to do this, but that's the current version of having to go learn how land surveys work and then trawling through old records that may or may not exist.
Show threadnullNov 9, 2022
@JeromeySims @histodons What about a format like Oral History depositories/collections hosted at universities? What if universities elected to host and accept submissions to their collection of digital history? I know some do this with artifacts/primary sources, but what about actual #digitalhistory projects?
Show threadTorsten KathkeNov 9, 2022
@micah @JeromeySims @histodons That’s a very interesting way to think about it. I wonder how much of it is culturally conditioned, e.g. the home ownership metaphor. Here in Germany, most people rent and many do not aspire to own because there are pretty decent renters protections and rents aren’t exorbitant in most places (nothing‘s perfect, of course, but still). I wonder how much how we think about virtual space is bound to the physical spaces we live in.
Show threadnullNov 9, 2022
@torstenkathke @JeromeySims @histodons I agree about the metaphor, but I stand on my point here -- how can digital scholarship have the staying power of physical prints without individual/press/university ownership and responsibility?
Show threadAaron Brick — אהרן בריקNov 9, 2022
@micah @torstenkathke @JeromeySims @histodons Benign neglect only works for some documents some of the time; even for print media we often depend on institutions to manage and care for it. The missing link in this analogy may be that internet "habitation" actually means serving documents on request. It might scale better than brochures or mimeographs but obviously the cost never quite reaches zero. The only way to really become immortal in this space is to convince an institution to host files.
Show threadJeromey Sims (Moved 2 BlueSky)Nov 9, 2022
@aarbrk @micah @torstenkathke @histodons
Ok, but does it *have* to be that way? That's my question. I suspect the answer is no, but that's also my preferential bias showing.
Show threadTorsten KathkeNov 9, 2022
@JeromeySims @aarbrk @micah @histodons Sorry all, I think I lost track of this thread when my instance kept glitching offline. But I do think there are some fundamental questions to be addressed here and hope to continue the conversation.
Show threadAaron Brick — אהרן בריקNov 9, 2022
@JeromeySims @micah @torstenkathke @histodons No, for me, no practical alternative to the client-server model comes to mind. We can hand out as many copies as possible, like some musicians and cults do, and hope people keep theirs on hand — but whoever keeps a copy bears the costs of the storage (physical or digital). Then there is the blockchain model, in which an ad-hoc institution agrees to work to preserve data together. Traditional web service over HTTP is still much more cost-effective.
Show threadAaron Brick — אהרן בריקNov 9, 2022
@JeromeySims @micah @torstenkathke @histodons Back to the physical world, at the more permanent end of the spectrum, a carved stele can be read by the public for a long time — but look what happened to the Georgia Guidestones. Anyone for Voyager Golden Records?
Show threadTorsten KathkeNov 9, 2022

@micah @JeromeySims @histodons I think they’re connected. You can buy and own things indefinitely, but that doesn’t mean it won’t incur further costs. Upkeep, repair, a physical place to keep it that nothing else can occupy, climate control, etc. Maintenance is at the heart of the physical world as much as it is the digital.

Your point is well taken though: we don’t have all the systems/standards/practices in place. Society needs a better handle on this.

Show thread@krisnelsonNov 9, 2022

@micah @JeromeySims @histodons Described like you have, these issues of "ownership" of "space" on the Internet sound more like leasehold at best (unlike the freehold most USians are used to with property) or peasant-style tenant farming at worst.

That said, I've seen these issues analyzed more commonly in the legal world in terms of licensing/contract, often subsumed into so-called "intellectual property" (though tbh I consider these more like pseudo-property or property-like arrangements).

Show threadnullNov 9, 2022
@krisnelson @JeromeySims @histodons But the issue remains that if I wanted to own it as intellectual property, I would need to own the code. For many #histodons that is the same as owning a set of 000's and 111's. We aren't trained to utilize the code, so without web hosting the whole digital project becomes moot.
Show threadnullNov 9, 2022
@krisnelson @JeromeySims @histodons our primary job is history, not necessarily the tech. We aren't yet trained to write history in digital form, but also, won't become thus until a format is presented that has longterm viability. Double-edged sword and whatnot.
Show threadnullNov 9, 2022
@krisnelson @JeromeySims @histodons My personal example of this is how intensive it has been to develop my online museum. Not only am I the sole researcher and the sole historian narrator, but I am the sole tech person and designer. That is too many specialties and makes any progress like wading through mud. Perhaps it would be good to normalize team-driven work in digital history, but we're used to working alone in dusty archives. It is just a massive shift and without funding to pay technologists or design artists, they have no reason to participate. In the SQ, our monographs are printed by presses so they can make money off the scholarship. We sell our content, essentially, while retaining intellectual rights.
Show thread@krisnelsonNov 9, 2022
@micah @JeromeySims @histodons Ah, yes, outside of legal ownership per se, now you're talking the language of #archivists and describing many of the challenges they have in preserving old movies, old audio, old records in obsolete formats that devolve into mootness because as physical object alone they are useless.
Show threadnullNov 9, 2022
@krisnelson @JeromeySims @histodons exactly. It is one thing to learn to write in narrative form. It is another to also learn to write in a constantly transforming digital code. On top of the scholarship itself, it is overwhelming.
Show threadLinux and praxis: part of the resistance 🇵🇸 ☮️Nov 9, 2022
@micah @krisnelson @JeromeySims @histodons I'm happy with my hosted server. I can't be dealing with derivatives of Red Hat.
Show threadJeromey Sims (Moved 2 BlueSky)Nov 9, 2022
@krisnelson @micah @histodons
*THIS* These are the chains. We want to set up a decentralized/democratized repository of "the people's data?" What does that contain? One piece of copyrighted content for which the repository host doesn't have the author's consent to publish? Oops. Now the hoster must comply with DMCA requests and whatnot or face the legal consequences. We need some sort of copyright expiration/freedom to re-share solution that protects regular people.
Show threadJack Yan (甄爵恩)Nov 9, 2022
@micah I remember @ricmac pointed out something similar on his blog years ago, in relation to the author and broadcaster Clive James. The internet isnʼt a place that stores your stuff forever, contrary to earlier thought. (Heʼll be better placed to recall it as Iʼm going off my memory rather than searching for his piece!) @JeromeySims @histodons
Show threadRichard MacManusNov 9, 2022
@jackyan @micah @JeromeySims @histodons yes indeed, I wrote about this in context of the late great Clive James’ website (which I’m happy to say is still online): https://ricmac.org/2020/02/26/clive-james-website/
Internet amnesia: Clive James & his website - Richard MacManus

The writer and cultural critic Clive James died last November, at the age of 80. His website, clivejames.com, lives on. James viewed his website as a way to preserve his work, and even in a sense live forever. What he didn't realise is that the Web forgets the past all…

Richard MacManus
Show threadJack Yan (甄爵恩)Nov 9, 2022
@ricmac Thank you, Rich! @micah @JeromeySims @histodons
Show threadJack Yan (甄爵恩)Nov 13, 2022

@micah One more for you, Micah, from 2014, linked from this post: https://mastodon.social/@jperlow/109334736053854741

@ricmac @JeromeySims @histodons

Show threadnullJan 13, 2023
@jackyan @ricmac @JeromeySims @histodons There's something about this that reminds me of Allan Nevins concern that the telephone would replace written letters.
Show threadDamon ThomasNov 9, 2022
@micah @JeromeySims @histodons Physical media can go "out of print" which makes availability limited. At times cost prohibitive. This is offset by rereleasing the book/album/etc. Digital items can be released in various places/ways as well. Whatever is needed to align with contemporary consumption trends. It seems this has always been the case. How many ways has the Ship of Theseus story been shared over the years?
Show threadPeter WebsterNov 10, 2022

@micah @JeromeySims

It's a very good point. That said, it *is* possible to secure a part of the space in a slightly different sense by buying your own domain (as I have peterwebster.me ). Someone hosts the data and maintains the machines, but that's definitely my address, even the data moves around.

Show thread#WikiPartyNov 12, 2022
@micah @JeromeySims @histodons Here in #SouthAfrica we have something which must have also happened elsewhere: a legacy [yourname].nom.za domain strictly allocated to biological individuals, one per national ID number, and yours for life after a modest one-off payment.