Drew DeVaultAug 27, 2019
It should be fairly obvious by now that every project which has been forked over some perceived social injustice has quickly failed, being born and dying in irrelevance. Maybe if the spent some of the energy they spend harassing free software maintainers on perfecting the craft themselves, their forks would go somewhere
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 27, 2019

@sir I think that this conflates the success of a fork to the technical skill of the people forking it which isn't usually true. Half the reason why forks die is because other people don't contribute, partially because FLOSS has a tendency to be hostile towards minorities, (which is usually the reason the fork exists to begin with lol)

If we can raise awareness and empathy for marginalized groups within FLOSS, forks will be made less often, and be more successful when they do pop up.

Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 27, 2019
@wgahnagl @sir The FLOSS community isn't hostile towards minorities, but it's very much focused on merit. If you yell loudly and often, but don't really bring any code to the table, people are more dismissive of your calls for action. Don't forget that most FLOSS software is also made for gratis by other people. Demanding they change the things they worked for in their spare time because you feel like it's something you deserve isn't "empathy for marginalized groups". That's just harassment.

As for the Glimpse fork of GIMP it's important to note that, in reality, the word "gimp" isn't offensive to the vast majority of the world. To demand a change that's relatively costly to most users, and to do so using harassment tactics[1], seems like a very strange thing to me if you're arguing for compassion and empathy.

[1]: I'm not saying you use harassment tactics, but the group demanding the rename on GitLab was.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 27, 2019
@tyil but right, look at the first part of your argument. You mention minorities, and bring merit as almost an argument against them, by putting them at odds with each other. I know you didn't mean anything by it, but it's these very very small actions that build up to contribute to a hostile environment.
When you hear arguments about minorities in FLOSS constantly at odds with "merit", eventually you believe that the community doesn't aknowledge your skill, which is hostile. +
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 27, 2019
@tyil and specifically in the case of "gimp" being nonoffensive to most of the world, why do you value "most of the world" more than you value the few? Does it make a difference how many people are hurt when you know that people are hurting?
I think it really is an issue of empathy, and seeing the people on the other side of the argument as nothing more than people the other side of the argument. +
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 27, 2019
@tyil if you don't have people around you who will help you understand marginalized viewpoints, that's not a bad thing, but it's on you to look at yourself and think about the ways you might've pushed away their perspective, or silenced their voice.
Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 27, 2019
@wgahnagl No, it's not "on me" to go out of my way to find things to be upset about that doesn't really affect anyone when looking at a reasonable scale.

There's bigger issues in the world that need much more attention that I'd prefer people would focus there efforts on, instead of trying to cater to the feelings of an abysmally small group of very toxic people.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 27, 2019
@tyil but this is it, you know? I'm trying to describe to you you what I see as the disconnect between us, and help us fix it.
I feel that no matter what I write I can't convince you to value my argument if you don't take a step to see my perspective.
From here I feel that you've turned me into just "someone on the other side of the argument", which means we can't really communicate well.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 27, 2019

@tyil like, I see your perspective as one that is valuable because you're part of the FLOSS community which I love. If I can help you understand why these problems affect me, I want to.
But I feel like a part of the conversation revolves around how you don't care about my perspective, and so to have any constructve conversation we need to start there.

Also maybe take it to DM because this thread is hella long we're both wild lmao

Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 27, 2019
@wgahnagl It's not that I don't care about your perspective, it's that there's no sane discussion to be had with people that go out of their way to look for offense all the time, when there's actual issues in the world that do affect people in negative ways. People get killed over issues all over the world all the time. 4 people having their feelings hurt because they can't understand that "GIMP" is not someone calling them "a gimp" and actively harming them is a such a non-issue.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 27, 2019
@tyil dawg, you just said you value my perspective and then said that there's no sane discussion to be had with people who share my perspective
Like we straight up cannot understand each other like this
Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 27, 2019
@wgahnagl I value your perspective, but not the result you seem to arrive at. If your idea is that everything is offensive in one way or another and therefore everything needs to change to be as emotionless as possible, then I do think there's no discussion to be had, no. I've tried this many a time, and it always devolves to being called a nazi, or people otherwise trying to defame my character instead of bringing actual arguments. This happened earlier this week, even.

I do admit I can't understand you, for I cannot understand why you'd go out of your way to find offense when there is none. I can't understand why you'd go around telling people they're offensive instead of fixing actual issues yourself. Why is it so important that a handful of people (at best) have their feelings hurt, yet millions are starving. There are places where rape is a common, lawful act to engage in. There are *actual* issues to spend your limited time on. The people that complain the loudest on social "justice" issues are one of the most privileged (as they call it) in the world.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 27, 2019
@tyil I got you there lmao, that makes perfect sense and I agree!
But when having conversations like this, I feel like your stance leans towards "well if we care about this one small thing, what's stopping us from caring about EVERYTHING ALL AT ONCE?" which is super overwhelming and kind of self defeating, and I have a hunch that it's because people have been hostile when explaining to you why you should care (read: called you a nazi). So you see me as someone who's going to do the same thing.
Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 27, 2019
@wgahnagl >So you see me as someone who's going to do the same thing.

I never said that, I just said that your points still make no sense whatsoever when you look at it from any reasonable scale.

Being offended isn't a right that makes everyone have to cater to you. Offence is something you take, and it's up to you to fix the problem, not the rest of the world. However, these "minority" groups as you call them demand others to fix their problems for them, and harass others over it at every possibility. I don't think that's something to be proud of, let alone something to be supported. Especially given that there's so much more wrong already.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 27, 2019

@tyil of course you didn't say it, but that's the subtext I'm reading. In one reply you were worried that I'm trying to "make you look bad", you were worried that working on FLOSS projects will "get you called a nazi", and I feel like you're putting on the defense to protect against my inevitable hot take of "gotcha, you're racist"

before I engage with like any of this stuff I just want to figure out what your perception of me is so that we can actually continue lmao

Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 27, 2019
@wgahnagl

>I feel like you're putting on the defense to protect against my inevitable hot take of "gotcha, you're racist"

I mean, that's the common tactic with those "progressive" people that see offence everywhere, hence I don't think they're a particularly good group to take hints from. The words "racist", "nazi" and "white supremacist" have lost all meaning due to their tactics.

I'm not particularly worried, you can call me whatever, as I'm a proponent of free speech. Clearly, you don't think this is a positive, as you want to remove words where a group of obnoxious people claim it to be "offensive" for the sole purpose of fitting into their favourite victim narrative.

So far, I've not seen a single well-reasoned argument as to why GIMP is supposedly the big evil we're supposed to fight collectively.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 27, 2019

@tyil
but you totally do care!
Words hurt you too, like when strangers show up to call you a nazi!
To say you aren't affected by it is to say that you don't have feelings at all, which is just untrue, and a disservice to yourself!
You have feelings, and so do I, and I think it's a net positive if we both can be happy.

I'm not even debating GIMP anymore, I want to get to the real issue here of our communication disconnect.

Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 27, 2019
@wgahnagl I don't say I'm not affected by it, I tell you I don't worry about it because I support your right to call me whatever you want. Allowing people to call me nazi is a clear indicator to me that those people are trash, and not to be taken serious. It's the easiest way to go about it.

Your entire post reeks of trying to put words in my mouth just for the sake of being "right" by your moral standards. If you want to fix a communication disconnect, I'd recommend you try and stop to pretend that I'm saying things I haven't said. Instead, try to respond to what I'm actually saying, which is something you've been ignoring for a reasonable number of posts now.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 27, 2019

@tyil right this is like a 5 step plan lmao
I can't get to dealing with your points while still don't understand each other. It'll just waste time for both of us, and we'll get nowhere, but I'm getting to it I promise.

From my end, I was trying to figure out if you agree that an emotional argument sometimes has value, because we both have emotions, and deserve to be happy. Are we on the same page there, or does that still not work as an argument for you.

Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 27, 2019
@wgahnagl Sure. But emotion should never outweigh reason, which seems to be the big difference in our opinions. I don't think just because one is getting emotional about something silly, he now has a valid argument to demand changes from others (as is what happens pretty much all the time with these people favouring social "justice").
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 27, 2019

@tyil ok cool lmao

so the next step is to figure out what you define as reason, and where the line is drawn between that and emotion.

Because personal bias is always involved in defining logic, so how do you determine that your beliefs are objective and ethical.

Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 27, 2019
@wgahnagl There's this thing people call "proof", or "evidence". They use it in order to show that what they say has some grounds in reality. In this particular case, one would have to provide some of this "proof" that the term GIMP is indeed an actual problem for a number of people. Additionally, they should be able to somehow prove that the supposed benefits (changing the name) outweighs the supposed negatives (loss of a brand, loss of literally all 3rd party documentation, additional financial cost for hosting, whatever). Lastly, if they want to clearly convey it is a real problem, they should be willing to provide *their* effort into solving the problem.

Emotion, on the other hand, is oftentimes done through the absence of any half-decent evidence. They'll try to attack the person instead of the arguments (mostly because the "offended" people have none). They'll refuse to put in any effort, for they secretly understand that it's just wasted effort.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 27, 2019

@tyil ok but pump the brakes, you moved like three spaces I'm trying to move one

I want to boil down your actual moral code first before we get into the actual issue.

My stance is that if I can put kindness into the world, I should try, and that's what i use to inform 100% of my decisions, but I believe that your moral code is different.

Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 27, 2019
@wgahnagl I don't think the GIMP rename is moved by kindness. If anything it seems to be motivated by the exact opposite.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 27, 2019

@tyil it doesn't have to be, I'm still two spaces behind you.
I'm trying to help you figure out how I inform my own decisions, while trying to figure out how you inform yours.

Whether or not I'm putting kindness into the world is what I use to determine whether or not an action is correct.

do you have any litmus test to determine if an action of yours is right or wrong?

Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 27, 2019

@tyil ok! So that means you don't see issues on a personal level, if your morality depends on scale, but it's easy for me, because I interact with EVERYTHING on a personal level.
That's a huge difference!

This is 100% not a point in a debate it's something i just fully Don't Understand about your viewpoint, how can you know for sure what you're doing is right if you have to wait for things to pan out first? Isn't that really stressful while you wait?

Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 28, 2019
@wgahnagl Stress is between your ears. Just don't do it.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 28, 2019

@tyil lmao we've lost all steam just when it was getting good

it doesn't bug you that you might just end up being wrong about stuff, and end up hurting people?

Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 28, 2019
@wgahnagl I should ask you the same, as from my PoV, Glimpse is going to hurt a lot more people without fixing any actual problems that actually hurt people. Again, the people shouting angrily how "gimp" is a slur don't seem to be actually offended, just pretending to fit into a victim narrative. If they are truly offended, maybe they ought to look at themselves first. Because there's no offence in any given word on its own. Offence is taken, not given, and context matters *a lot*.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 28, 2019
@tyil I'm a l m o s t ready to get into it but I just gotta know your take on hurting people accidentally/deliberately. Do you think that it's your fault if you hurt someone without meaning to, and do you feel obligated to apologize?
Even set it apart from people on the internet, just people you know in real life.
Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 28, 2019
@wgahnagl That depends on this thing, context, that I talked about in the last comment. This is why I told you you seem to ignore most of my posts to fit into your narrative more in an earlier comment already.

Context matters, and here it's kind of the most important part of the proposed situation. There's no "one size fits all" answer for everything, no matter how much you want to pretend that's a thing. People generally pretend that's a thing in order to get upset over some nonsense.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 28, 2019

@tyil OK that's all the info I needed thank you for participating in my survey lmao let's fukken get into it

tbh I've been on the periphery of the glimpse project, just reading discussion and seeing what the strat was, but the thing that made the forkers seem So Ridiculously Irrational is 100% the same disconnect that we just (hopefully) worked through.

them seeing each other as the other in an argument, refusing to value viewpoints, and failing to build common ground +

Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 28, 2019

@tyil by failing to moderate the tone of the discussion, both sides made themselves look like colossal assholes to everyone on the sidelines, with us both seeing our respective sides as the rational one, reinforcing the divide.

I support the fork, because I see that the project is doing very little harm. They don't expect the world to immediately switch to it, but it's a fork ultimately motivated by the drive to put kindness into the world. +

Show threadpuffball: trianglemancer
@tyil though you can see the actual actions of the forkers to be shitty, you can see that the motivation to do it in the first place comes from an aspiration to use inclusive language, which is only ever done if kindness is a concern.
Aug 28, 2019 at 5:42amWeb
Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 28, 2019
@wgahnagl

> it's a fork ultimately motivated by the drive to put kindness into the world

It's not. The comments on GitLab show very little kindness.

> you can see that the motivation to do it in the first place comes from an aspiration to use inclusive language

I can see an aspiration to always try to exist in a victim narrative, so you can start pretending everyone is Hitler except you.

> which is only ever done if kindness is a concern.

That's hardly ever the reason for doing it. It's almost always a bunch of entitled twats pretending they're huge victims because they want to have some big issues in life they need to tackle. It's human nature to find problems to fix when you have none. But that doesn't mean society should cave just for those few people.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 28, 2019

@tyil aright I guess the tryna build common ground didn't really work that well lmao

You seem really intent on discounting them as lying, but what makes you believe that?
In an earlier post you mentioned that you've never met anyone who was actually hurt by it, but when people come out to say that they are, you don't believe them. What could get you to believe that their view isn't just made up?

Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 28, 2019
@wgahnagl I don't think there's any common ground with someone that just ignores context purposefully all the time. It's arguably the most important aspect of all social interactions.

I discount them as lying due to the context in which they operate. They set out to harass the project members in order to enforce their ideals on someone else's work. When the GIMP team didn't cave to that, only then did they decide to do a fork as some sort of threat, which they still haven't done anything with.

Again, if you want to convince me of some great scheme on how the GIMP team is trying to insult people on purpose all the time, you should come with some proof, not just some random angry comments on the Internet from unverifiable sources.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 28, 2019
@tyil so you see them as a mob of SJWs who genuinely enjoy going online and getting into debates that last 13 years
Show threadProblematic Conference AttendeeAug 28, 2019
@wgahnagl If only they would go into debates, that'd be a lot more commendable. Instead, they opted for something far more dangerous which has now become the status quo. People are now fearing to speak up for actual problems because this mob will vilify them for it. People trying to get actual problems solved are losing key positions for not being "inclusive" enough. Equal opportunities are being removed in favour of equal outcomes. Many of the core principles that have made the west the striving society it is are being eroded by these "SJWs", in their supposed call for "inclusivity". Safe spaces are being demanded, which by any standard is just segregation again. If you're in favour of making the world a better place, supporting these people seems like the last thing you want to do.
Show threadpuffball: trianglemancerAug 28, 2019
@tyil well this is a Hella bummer
Idk I don't think this is actually gonna work after all. I feel that you don't see the people on the other side as people, really.
From what I'm reading, I feel like you see us as invaders in a space that belongs to you, and by asking the world to be kinder, you see us as taking up a space that you've earned.
I think all I can do is ask you why you think that space is yours, and why you think that inclusivity is a zero sum game