@VacuumForest

> neither acronym is any less disingenuous

I disagree, but I consider all groups disingenuous to a degree.

> It is that entire paradigm that feeds idiots who want to be contrarian as fuck

I strongly disagree -- if being 'contrarian as fuck' is 'upholding things as they are', then I'm not seeing how the difference between upholding the status quo and improving the status quo isn't a relevant issue.

@VacuumForest

> chucklefuck hate speech apologists

Isn't this really just going to end up being another catch-all that ignores the distinction between SQWs (who aren't thinking about consequences) and FFNs (who are simply lying fascists)?

> You toss garbage in a bin, not ideas.

Allow me to synthesize: You toss garbage *ideas* into a metaphorical bin, don't you?

You're asking me to do precisely that with 'SQW', since it's 'unproductive' to you.

@sydneyfalk No, I think your "SQW" is more what I had in mind, not "FFN". Hopefully we can make a distinction between idiots and bad actors. Maybe I'm just allergic to acronyms?

I probably should avoid metaphors if I'm going to eschew acronyms. I was trying to make a point about sorting bins, not garbage bins. I'm not good at metaphors, at all.

I think that the whole SQW and SJW label is more productive to people who are just looking to argue.

@VacuumForest

I like acronyms because it reduces typing strain.

SQWs argue against progressive stuff reflexively, often because their own lives are Pretty Much Okay. Think South Park -- every episode (with I think a handful of exceptions) has the same moral: "Everybody stop caring so much, things will calm down, it's already okay, guys."

As for arguing -- I hope more arguing goes on, really. Complacency is how this mess got this bad, IMHO. :(

@sydneyfalk I'm sorry I initially phrased it the way I did. I have no right to tell you what to call a sandwich.

I'm just tired of watching people bandwagon to defend awful things and I wonder how it can be stopped. You're right about a lot of things as I can see it, and you make solid arguments for your thinking.

I want all arguments to reach a point of resolution where we can agree that we're all human.

@VacuumForest

> I want all arguments to reach a point of resolution where we can agree that we're all human.

I *want* that.

I do not think it's possible, any longer, if I'm painfully honest.

I think there's always going to be a subset of people who decide the wrong skin color is the problem, or the wrong language, religion, or culture.

The stupid ones are loud and very shortsighted. The smart ones become what I term FFNs, 'frozen fruit Nazis'.

@VacuumForest

Mental health issues aren't the relevant part, though, IMO. There will always be people who can be lured into listening to the basest, most animal parts of their mind.

Blaming the mentally ill for it is likely to just increase negative impact on the mentally ill as a whole.

The FFNs are the relevant part, IMO. If they no longer have the "LEGALLY it's part of FREE SPEECH" argument, then they just look like Nazis, which -- they are.

@sydneyfalk I don't think we need to paint atrocities as mental illness, but we do need to reflect on the lessons of the Stanford Prison Experiment, and so on to reject the notion that hate should get a platform. Hate is a disease.

But yes, if we were in Germany, there would be no avenue to say "of course we can do the Nazi salute and our 14 words thingy, free speech!"

@VacuumForest

(and, with the understanding that working out the root cause would be a good idea -- do you think that'll be easier or harder if hate speech is still "free" and constitutionally protected?

just saying)

@VacuumForest

> I don't think hate speech is protected to begin with.

I think the legal status is that it's a non-starter to take down at this point. (And whether it's technically protected or not, the ACLU keeps doing it, so -- same end result.)

@sydneyfalk Slippery slopes everywhere, like sledding down a never ending hill that at some point has white people in FEMA camps for mis-gendering someone in a casual conversation.

I think we might just be able to tackle "god hates f-words" or "all n-words must die" without invoking the US version of the Chinese Cultural Revolution. Nobody would do that anyway because it would be cultural appropriation. Fear is seductive, though.

@VacuumForest

> white people in FEMA camps for mis-gendering

I'll make the deal with you that I make with literally every other cis person who's ever floated the concept: The day I see an actual attempt to do that, I'll care about that hypothetical.

White supremacy is actual. I'm more worried about it than what you describe.

> we might just be able to tackle

With respect, if it hasn't happened yet, I don't see it happening.

Viva la revolution.