Stephen SugdenApr 24, 2017
Parker Higgins

With news of Unroll.me selling user inbox info to Uber, lots of people are repeating "if you're not paying for it, you're the product."

I've said before, and will continue to say, that that is the wrong formulation. Sometimes you pay for it and you're still the product – look at US ISPs. Sometimes you don't pay for it and you're not the product – free software.

The real question is whether a software or service empowers users, which can't be boiled down to whether you paid.

Apr 24, 2017 at 5:10pmWeb
Show threadParker HigginsApr 25, 2017
I want to add something to what I said above, which is that equating payment with trust is bad and people who do that are likely trying to sell you something
Show threadDavid MercerApr 26, 2017
@xor good point, but I still made sure to toss some bitcoin at this GNU Social instance when I started to use it....its on a FOSS advocacy and educational platform, so I'm sure I'm fine here on sdf.org, donation or not :-)
Show threadJerry 🦙💝🦙Apr 24, 2017
@xor you generally won't be disappointed if you assume you are always the product, but sometimes may be pleasantly surprised.
Show threadRafał PiątkowskiApr 24, 2017
@xor I agree, although I feel like need to point out to casual. readers that free software is not gratis. Someone does pay for it, and sometimes the payment is deferred, especially when software is used for paid work.
Show threadTristan Nitot✓Apr 24, 2017
@xor See also the new Bose scandal where you buy expensive headphones and they still manage to steal data from you :-(
Show threadMunin, Keeper of LoreApr 24, 2017

@xor It's a question of who owns the data and what their rights and responsibilities are.

It's almost feudal in nature, but with contract law in place of the Magna Carta.

Show thread⦺ irick 🐁🐈⚩Apr 24, 2017

@xor Maybe we should recontextualize paying for it. FOSS still requires a payment, either in giving up the shiny hotness that comes from the big services or the actual development resources of maintaining the projects/services.

As they say "If you can't find the sucker at the table..."

It's me. I'm the sucker. :<

Show threadDanie van der MerweApr 24, 2017

@xor definately true on paid services where you are also the product. I like to think of payment (especially for FOSS) that it is a product I want to see being sustainable.

I do sort of expect rolled up usage stats (not my personal info) being used for "free" services, or at least ads being shown, as something has to still pay for the service. The usage terms should be clear though.

Show threadæon Apr 24, 2017
@xor hard agree, boggles me that people don't seem to get this
Show threadMeli SApr 24, 2017
@xor Yes, thank you!! "if you're not paying, you're the product" is only part of the story.
Show threadDarius KazemiApr 24, 2017
@xor my new slogan: "I did a statistical regression analysis and not paying correlates to being the product with an r of ~0.6"
Show threadNuntiusApr 24, 2017
@xor @darius Where r is the sample _product_ moment correlation coefficient 😂
Show threadKevin MarksApr 24, 2017
@xor the real question is "Who is the customer?" http://epeus.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/when-youre-merchandise-not-customer.html
Show threadAlex Cendre 🌋Apr 24, 2017
@xor or maybe we can all agree that the problem is in fact capitalism and it's time to get rid of it?
Show threadDanny O'BApr 25, 2017
@xor bravo! now do the one about how only two industries talk about users
Show threadParker HigginsApr 25, 2017
@mala lol playing ALL the hits tonight
Show threadRysiekúr (old account)Apr 25, 2017

@xor I agree with all of this, but just to stir up hornets' nest a bit:

1. how about: "if you're not paying for it, there's a good chance you're the product"

2. we really have to start making #FLOSS users understand they *need* to support the software they're using financially even if there is no upfront price tag.

Show threadParker HigginsApr 25, 2017
@rysiek I'm with you 100%. "if you can't figure out the business model, that's a pretty good indicator that you're what they're selling" might work, but it needs some workshopping.
Show threadMMN-o ✅⃠Apr 25, 2017
@rysiek @xor How about "Proprietary software is evil, use libre software. And trust your admin!"
Show threadMMN-o ✅⃠Apr 25, 2017
*likes my own post because noone else will* cc: @rysiek @xor
Show threadpettter ✅Apr 25, 2017
@xor @rysiek "If you can't tell what they're selling, but they look like they do, it's you"?
Show threadCraig TimpanyApr 25, 2017
"If your jurisdiction has weak data privacy laws, you're the product."
Show threadChris OffnerApr 25, 2017

@xor "If you're not paying for it, you're the product (unless it's FOSS)." does not exclude the possibility "Sometimes when you're pay for it, you're still the product."

It just says that if you aren't paying for it, it's more likely that you're the product.

Show threadvruz [DEAD ACCOUNT]Apr 25, 2017
@xor The whole of the Free and Open Source experience had proved that beyond doubt. Capitalists and other re-centralisers don't get to litigate this charge twice.
Show threadwill (tilde aspect)Apr 25, 2017
@xor a lot of things you have to pay for and still get advertised at