Mastodawn

M. Grégoire Aug 14, 2017

@paulfree14 As Obi-Wan said, "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

Vigilantism, even against Nazis, is very unwise. It encourages extremism.

Paul Free (14 Ⓐ, europe)Aug 14, 2017

@mpjgregoire yeah just with the difference that nazis aren't Obi-Wan. They are humans. And they gather with others supporting their hate ideas. As more they feel empowerd as more they will rise.
So you break what makes them feel powerfull.
If they can walk along a street and punish or even kill blacks that will make them feel empowerd to move on.
So you push back.
No one needs 'legal authority' to help each other out.

...being able to quote starwars doesn't make one wise.

@paulfree14 Your points deserve a reply, and now I have some time.

(0. Star Wars isn't a particularly wise movie, though parts are quotable.)

The overall goal is to make Fascists/white supremacists/neo-Nazis a powerless fringe, right? Here are mostly instrumental reasons why physically attacking them is a bad idea.

1. Richard Spencer craves media attention, because it gets more people to listen to him. Punching him brings him the attention he wants.

...

@mpjgregoire
1. they had tons of attention before...and they felt more and more empowerd for public activity.
...yes this one punsh was extra attention but it makes them also fear the public.
..also it was mainly the punsh with attention less what spencer said (he got hit during a press conference/interview)

But I agree that one needs to watch out for the victim card they then play. ...but they play it anytime, even while murdering..

@paulfree14
2. Spencer wants his listeners to take him seriously (rather than e.g. mockingly). If his opponents care enough to punch him, then people will think what he says is important.
3. If Fascists are being physically attacked, then they have a justification to organise themselves for violence and to arm themselves. Confrontations will become more violent.

...

@mpjgregoire
2. they want to ocure strong.
being punshed while speaking doesn't make ppl believe you more.
What he says is important. It is part of a strategy to build a united strong right wing. The response for that was a punsh.

@mpjgregoire
3. they call for arm yourself since ever.
They call to opress others since ever.
that's some core of their ideology.
they don't need any justification for that.
Here's a list of domestic threads and murder by fashists from 2017 in US
https://antifainternational.tumblr.com/post/159425251484/you-antifa-guys-are-actually-more-hateful-and

@paulfree14
4. Some young men are attracted by the frisson of violence. There are people who will become Fascists precisely because of the chance of fighting.
5. As #politics descends into violence, the mass of citizens loses faith in liberal democracy. They will support groups with which they would not normally be comfortable. We should not presume the majority would side with the anti-Facscists.

...

@mpjgregoire
4. if that's true you will have this effect on both sides. There is no reason why someone just wants to fight would pick one or the other side.

@mpjgregoire
5. I hope for that. I believe in anarchist values. :-p

@paulfree14 I'm tempted, but will resist pursuing my 8 points 1 at a time. But I'll clarify #5.

In the 1930s, when German democracy broke down amid clashes between the brownshirts and the Red Front, the public decided they preferred the Fascists. Whom the public supports depends on who seems least hostile to them and who is likeliest to win (typically the most ruthless).

Violence between #antifa and Fascists may lead the public to sympathise with the Fascists, not anarchists.

@mpjgregoire
...https://youtu.be/P54sP0Nlngg?t=4m7s

that's for what the punsh are. Nothin more nothin less. Breaking their strategy.

...also you may like to watch it from the beginng

@mpjgregoire just that also red front was about opression through authoritarian. So if the public should choose between one or the other opressor they may prefer the fashists...as they make them at least privilidges.

#antifa doesn't say anything about if one is anarchist, democrat, stalinist or whatever. Fascists have been always violent against them. ...and the public mostly remain quite.

antifa today is actually much about liberation. polical situation very differnt from 1930

@paulfree14
6. When someone with wicked words is attacked with fists, rather than arguments, people assume that is because you lack strong arguments.
7. The law protects both the weak and the strong. Actions that undercut respect for the law will remove protections for the weak, which could be you and me at some point. (For a wiser movie, see https://youtu.be/PDBiLT3LASk .)

@mpjgregoire
6. strong arguments don't get wide attention in this cases.
those ppl who have not listend to you before aren't turned away from you after the punsh....as they never have listend to you.
...then at least get a wide discourse running.

@mpjgregoire
7. law is protecting status quo
I'm not calling to remove free speech but to stop domestic terrorism.
If groups organize to oppress other don't protect the opressors but those being opressed.
...law made possible: muslim ban, the wall, deportation...that's not protecting the weak, just status quo.

@paulfree14
8. My final point, ethical rather than instrumental. Fascists are oppressors. Do we really want to become like them in this regard, even if it would be in order to fight them? Let us use reason, the law, non-violent witness, and normal #politics to thrust Fascists to the margins of society.

Of course, if you see Fascists physically attacking someone, it is right, just and legal to defend that person.

@mpjgregoire
8. I think it's important to see violence wider as direct pysical violence.
And that pysical violence can be also if you been refused to resieve healthcare, shelter of food.
Or if you get deported. This all directly effects your body as so it is pysical violence.
Every fascist is physical attacking someone.

That doesn't mean in any situation the same respond is apropriated.
Indeed my most interactions with nazis is about countering with speech and love.