tanteI wonder if this trend of "Kidults" (as in adults buying toys or having other very "child-like" hobbies and preferences) is fueled by how little pathways to joy we leave to adults so many revert back to when Ninja Turtles made them happy.
uncapybarableLike what are established forms of joy for adults that are
a) not based on competition/"excellence"/job-like performance
b) not talked about as wasteful/frivolous
c) accessible to people without a lot of spare cash?
a) not based on competition/"excellence"/job-like performance
b) not talked about as wasteful/frivolous
c) accessible to people without a lot of spare cash?
Traumkämpfer@tante and not just jobs. It seems to me that everything has to be a competition now and it takes serious effort to convince some people that cooperation is a thing that can be a lot of fun.
Allan Haverholm@tante Seriously. Scratching b) off the list gives a bit more opportunities — mainly in arts.
@haverholm sure. But at least in Germany where I live these things are sometimes looked down on a bit (unless you make them a business or something).
@tante Yeah. I'm Danish living in Sweden, I don't think the (work) cultures diverge so much. But I've worked in arts and media all my life, eventually you get asked "is that a real job?" enough that you just stop paying attention.
Real job? Fake job? Play pretend? It's paid the bills so far (if barely) 🤷
Lars Rosenquist@tante @haverholm The whole point of a hobby is that -you- enjoy it. What other folks think is irrelevant.
Paint something, do a puzzle, learn an instrument, play (video/board/card) games, sports, whatever.
And IMO it actually became more accepted to do stuff that used to be considered 'kids' stuff. Adults need play time too. :)
@larsrosenquist @tante I may have misread "joy" for "job"? Anyway, I wasn't talking about hobbies, sorry if that got off track.
Stuart 
@tante Yes. Most of this and more. I think there are many ways people try to cope with how the world is changing (and will change).
To me there's also the increasing removal of agency for younger generations of adults (compared to some previous generations). Having nobody to tell you you have to stop playing with your toys is a tiny act of exerting agency.
Jan Bretschneider@tante what about hobbies? Reading, knitting, painting, playing board games, dancing, cycling, hiking, swimming?
@bertvaneub sure there are those. But look at hoe they are framed: "You go swimming to be in competitions or for your fitness", reading is often framed as "education" and not joy (and literature that's really focused on job/fun is looked down upon).
The activities exist but what happens if you do them? How are you seen?
The activities exist but what happens if you do them? How are you seen?
@tante when I go swimming, I see a lot of people meeting, chatting, hanging out together, simply enjoying themselves. Same with reading, considering what books I see when I visit our library. So, no, the competition you seem to. experience is just the frame "they" imposed on you. Free yourself ;) sentire aude!
MinmiTheDinoThis is such an interesting discussion because
1) I don’t begrudge anyone their childlike hobbies if it brings them joy
2) I do think holding fast to childlike hobbies can make you miss the deeper, richer experiences of things adults can do and love, like literature or highly skilled crafts (among others)
3) I experience none of this contempt of hobbies that you seem to. In fact one of my favorite things about mastodon is the skill so many people put into their hobbies, and I feel like I admire them so much and so do others. I wonder how much is cultural and how much is internalized for both of us.
benz@tante @bertvaneub Repeat after me: the point of a hobby is not to be good at it, or to be useful, or to be the best, the point is that you enjoy doing it.
aacUR8@bentsukun @tante @bertvaneub this is kind of the approach I take. When I pick up my bass guitar it's because playing it brings me joy. I'm long past the opportune time to become a rock star. But there are few things in life that make me feel quite so good as playing along to a song, working on my own or playing with people.
Sebastian Hans@tante @bertvaneub If you care about how you are seen doing something, everything becomes performative, no matter what you do. This is self-defeating. For example, I practice Aikido. I'm sure there are many people who see martial arts as the ultimate competition. But that's not why I do it. And it's not why the people I am practicing with do it. I am not responsible for other people's misconceptions, and I'm certainly not going to let them dictate what I derive joy from.
CassandraVert@tante @bertvaneub I used to take dance classes. It did involve some cost, but not crazy. There were a bunch of adults with me, and none of us ever expected to be professional. So I suppose we were all there to have fun.
People don't think of me when I read because they don't see me.
People don't think of me when I read because they don't see me.
My mother told me when I was a teenager that when I became an adult, I would put aside the things I loved. I never understood why, so I never did.
Jeremy List@CassandraVert Now that I'm an adult I have to balance the things I love because I just don't get enough time every day for all of them.
Marc@tante (Do you mean “forms of job” or “forms of joy”?)
Anyway, I think most things Hobbits do would score rather high. Gardening, hiking, cooking, socializing, fighting evil overlords. Okay, the last one is kind of job-like.
Iker@tante It's a weird thing. There's versions of this that I do find problematic. Like the "girl math", "I'm just a girl" self-infantilizing things that kind of end up feeling like internalized misogyny. And in general, not just for specific gender identities, there's a lot of apathy and "I'm too unintelligent to understand" (substituting unintelligent for an ableist word), "it's not that deep", "I need an adult (even though I am myself an adult)", and other similar phrases that come from younger generations. I think some of this arrested development stems from the fact that "adulthood" has been defined by material things: owning housing, a car, not being in debt, starting a family. Socially and culturally, we have not taken the steps to disentangle those things that were taught to us. It's uncomfortable work, figuring out what adult self-actualization looks like when what we were promised was our future is something unattainable for a majority of the people who this was sold to. And that's kind of the thing, it was already a very privileged white-leaning view of things; plenty of folks who are marginalized have already had to confront the fact that they won't be able to access those things, most likely. Or they were born into social circumstances that don't view those specific things as THE pathway to adulthood because they were never sold the capitalistic dream of what adulthood looks like. I think in part the brand of nihilism that has been popularized in Europe and the USA (and the other so-called first-world countries) stems from this. Not that other parts of the world are immune, but their particular brand differs somewhat. Finding ways to redefine adulthood, that can include traditionally "childish" activities, but don't give in to infantilization, and also embrace neurodivergence and disability, is going to be very important for the future.
@tante I also think this is part of what fuels the apathy of even more "progressive" leaning people. "The system is at fault, not me, I can't do anything about it". I do tend to analyze problems in a systemic fashion because blaming individuals who did not choose the systems they live under is not particularly useful, and it's crucial to understand WHY things are the way they are to be able to improve. But at the same time, pretending to be helpless, to be "just a little guy", to refuse to engage with reality because it is messy and uncomfortable and painful is preventing us from reaching any kind of meaningful goals. When no one feels like they can take responsibility for things, a lot of things end up falling between the cracks, or more importantly, they just never get built or never happen. It destroys hope and it further feeds the sense of helplessness that permeates so much of first-world white culture. I can also tie it to how people talk about and think about elections, with so many people wanting unwavering and unquestioning allegiance to the "less bad" candidate, blocking any sense of being able to ask for better, to DEMAND better because we deserve it. They want someone who can make them forget about the horrors, not be the ones undoing the cause of the horrors and engaging with the question of how best to do that actively.
Michael Simons@tante Sitting on the couch with your partner, chilling, reading books or playing video games or card games or something like that, maybe with a coffee or $drink of choice does not count as hobbies these days.
David Fleetwood - RG Admin@tante And not based around substances. One of the disappointments of adulthood for me, personally, is how much adult 'fun' is based around a bar, pub, etc. I don't really drink, I don't have much interest in drinking, and I don't enjoy that atmosphere (childhood was heavily impacted by alcoholism around me).
Even when I was involved in party politics, events always seemed organized around alcohol. Is the only 'fun' for adults substance based?
(not judging btw)
Frottier
Colloseus
Jaap-Henk Hoepman 🟥 ⬜️ 🟩 ⬛️@tante Why would you restrict yourself to “established” forms of joy, and why do these three particular restrictions matter?
Martin Sutherland@tante Birdwatching! There are birds. You look at them. You succeeded. ⭐️