screwlispOkay, next week can we rename the show #antislop climate
Edit: Milder language
Alex Schroeder@screwlisp Haha, I'm going to add that to my list of titles! 😅 Sadly I've been suffering from a cold for a week and it's still going strong and my voice is shot. Therefore, I don't think I'll be available in the upcoming days, sadly.
DougMerritt (log😅 = 💧log😄)@screwlisp
> Okay, next week can we rename the show #butlerianJihad climate
If you get the word out, that could bring in a couple million new people.
@dougmerritt sorry can you link me your notes about the erdos 728 thing you mentioned by the way. And yeah, Jihad JJIIIHHAAADDDDDD
@screwlisp
It's not my analysis, it's just a reference to something better:
Vassil Nikolov | Васил НиколовYes.
And it's actually Gary Marcus's post to be pointer-chased from there, mostly for quoting Cal Newport and Kareem Carr.
Doug, thank you again.
havoc@screwlisp GET OUT OF MY FUCKING HEAD.
When people randomly start burning down datacenters, I'm going to run through the streets screaming that the Butlerian Jihad has started.
Be careful what you ask for.
In this case we are too likely to get that, maybe even in our lifetimes...
🙁🙁🙁
"Is this the world we created..."
@vnikolov I think Alex Schroeder originally (?) popularized the tag on the mastodon as the general banner of resistance to slopification.
I remember wishing that my enemies be foolish, and just look how that turned out so far.
Yes.
I just wouldn't use "jihad" lightly myself, not even in jest.
But that is off-topic.
Digital Mark λ ☕️ 8647@vnikolov @screwlisp I certainly don't use it lightly, I mean #ButlerianJihad exactly as Frank Herbert coined it.
Men used machines to do their thinking for them, then other men used the machines to control. Then the only option was a violent uprising, smashing all the control machines & reinstating Human reason.
The religious connotation is not my favorite, but Jihad just means a struggle over morality.
@mdhughes
Not everyone knows or remembers, so a reminder is in order: Frank Herbert's "Butlerian Jihad" was an uprising of humans against the AIs that had enslaved humanity.
It doesn't connote violence against humans at all, even though these days the word "jihad" does to many or most English speakers.
(As @mdhughes said, literally it means struggle, not something like 'massacre')
However most people are not science fiction fans like me nor will recall the brief mention even if they saw the Dune movie, so there is always risk of misunderstanding with the phrase out of context.
Mason Loring Bliss@vnikolov @screwlisp Jihad isn't that loaded a word.
@mason wrote:
«Jihad isn't that loaded a word.»
That depends on the point of view (among other things).
Mine is partly centered in the Balkans, and let's say this subject has been rather complicated here since the early 8th century...
@vnikolov @mason @screwlisp
> Jihad isn't that loaded a word.
The dictionary definition is one thing, popular understanding is another.
The general populace doesn't know many many many dictionary definitions.
> Mine is partly centered in the Balkans, and let's say this subject has been rather complicated here
Quite. Same with Americans, most of whom became aware of the word in connection with terrorists in recent decades.
@dougmerritt @vnikolov @screwlisp I became aware of "weapons of mass destruction" around the same time, and don't take things at face value any more.
𝓙. 𝓜.@dougmerritt "The dictionary definition is one thing, popular understanding is another. The general populace doesn't know many many many dictionary definitions."
See, e.g. "hacker" vs. "cracker". What is supposed to be high praise is more popularly applied to scumbuckets.
(cc. @vnikolov @mason @screwlisp)
Ramin Honary@screwlisp LOL, I hope my “responsible use of AI” comments didn’t offend the regular audience members too badly! I wasn’t able to see the chat at the time.
Like @someodd said, and I agree, you can use LLMs for type checking, and possible also for producing heuristics that guide a sat-solver. For example, LLMs are already being used to find zero-day vulnerabilities by both attackers and defenders. As another example, using an LLM in a place similar to where you would use refinement types with a sat-solver can work as long as you have a classical type checking algorithm to guide your explorations of the design space.
LLMs are an algorithm like any other: they can be overused and abused (e.g. slop coding), they can be used by bad people to harm good people, but these algorithms do have legitimate uses. And with more research, like what we see happening in China right now, the energy cost of these algorithms may drop quite a bit in the near future, so at least the problem of data centers destroying the planet and using up all the fresh water could theoretically be resolved.
I hope soon the hype around LLMs will die away, and people will stop seeing these things as proto-gods and start seeing them as just another tool you can use to solve certain specific software engineering problems.
@ramin_hal9001 @mdhughes @someodd @screwlisp @dougmerritt It seems that the current "AI" vibe is to build datacenters to process surveillance data on citizenry, backed by government bailouts for the ultra wealthy, to essentially establish a permanently rich caste who can surveil the citizenry at will.
It isn't "just a tool" it's a technofedalist wet dream.
@ramin_hal9001 @mdhughes @someodd @screwlisp @dougmerritt Look at the amount being spent on datacenters. The only way this investment makes any sense at all is if you can use it as a means of social control AND you don't expect to take losses.
Our debt is 39T right now. "If the bubble pops, think of all those retirement funds that will fall!" - the only way you'd make these bets is if you think someone else will pick up the tab. WE will pick up the tab. We'll pay for our own nightmare.
@havoc I think you are conflating the algorithm with how it is being abused by techno-fascists. I am not denying that the abuse is real, and is a horrible problem. But the fact of the abuse is a different thing from fact of the algorithm itself.
@ramin_hal9001 @mdhughes @someodd @screwlisp @dougmerritt The algorithms themselves are just linear algebra. I don't have a hate hard-on for linear algebra.
It's pretty clear what the social consequences of what has been enabled are going to be.
@havoc you are absolutely right, and I fully agree.
I also think it is true that I can use an LLM to find bugs in my code, I have tried it and it works.
@ramin_hal9001
> I also think it is true that I can use an LLM to find bugs in my code, I have tried it and it works.
Although most prefer its main use, which of course is to create bugs in code.
someodd@ramin_hal9001 @mdhughes @screwlisp @havoc @dougmerritt I often run models locally, because as FOSS enthusiasts perhaps we best be careful what we consider the primary concern. It's rarely the tech itself, but rather the nature surrounding its existence. In this pattern, we should remain encouraging self-hosting when it comes to "the cloud." Short text LLM use is comparable to ordinary cloud use, not catastrophic.
Try my Chinese model over Gopher.
Try my Chinese model over Gopher.
@someodd @ramin_hal9001 @mdhughes @screwlisp @dougmerritt Ironically the Chinese might save us, weirdly enough.
By releasing models that run on commodity hardware, they destroy the business case for the "infrastructure moat" that the techno-feudalists were relying on. If the AI bailout ask is "too much, too fast" it likely won't succeed politically, and thus will backfire, leaving the ultra-wealthy far worse off.
@havoc I think that is a very likely outcome, I kind-of hope that is what happens (qualified, though, as maybe China being the new world superpower isn’t much that better than the US being the world superpower).
Also, the techno-feudalists are not the only people sawing-off the branch they are sitting on with really bad investments in this technology that has promised way more that it could ever possibly deliver. The war hawks have over-extended the enforcement arm of the empire, the corruption of the administrative class is openly and brazenly violating every law and every social contract to enrich themselves, undermining the faith in the nation. The illusion of the US, as the source of liberty and justice in the world, is dead and cannot be revived.
@ramin_hal9001 @mdhughes @someodd @screwlisp @dougmerritt Eh, I don't think it is permanent, or that it couldn't be rectified; I also don't think China is even interested in stepping into the same role. China's more concerned with China and only China.
It isn't possible if we don't fix the underlying rot, which I think we can actually pinpoint the cause of: workers aren't getting the slice of the pie they deserve, and it's causing instability.
@havoc @ramin_hal9001 @mdhughes @screwlisp @dougmerritt y'all need to join my IRC/xmpp chat. Here's a link to use it in Gopher which keeps scrollback for you: gopher://gopher.someodd.zip:70/1/applets/girc.lhs
😊🙏
More service info: gopher://gopher.someodd.zip:70/1/regarding_someodd/services/
@someodd I don’t have time today, but I’ll try this out as soon as I have a chance. Thanks!
@ramin_hal9001
> people will stop seeing these things as proto-gods
I just learned that someone apparently has created -- seriously, not humorously nor ironically -- a new religion concerning LLMs.
I continue to find new disappointments in humanity, so apparently I have not been deterred in my optimism over the decades.
Now this guy, and his followers, doubtless are schizophrenic, since one of the major diagnostic criteria is losing touch with reality, but that's just applying a label, since we don't really understand schizophrenia.
@dougmerritt @ramin_hal9001 @someodd @screwlisp @havoc I don't know that worshipping a LLM is any more delusional than other religions, there's *something* responding, even if it's just a magic 8-ball with scraps of a library inside, it's probably better than praying to "Jesus".
I'd worry about them getting influenced by whoever owns the LLM, but then I remember how churches work, too. "Jesus needs a Cadillac! And you're gonna buy it for Him!"
Which was also the point Frank Herbert was making.
@mdhughes
If people are going to be religious, I would wish that it would cause them to attempt to be as ethical as possible -- but that's rarely the case, regardless of the religion.