Charlie Stross3d ago

#WritersCoffeeClub #WritingCommunity

20th May 2026. If not your current genre, what genre would you write?

This is your daily scheduled reminder that genres are just marketing labels.

I write SF/F, and I had a breakout success in 2007 with a novel about crime inside MMOs. In the UK, it hit its fourth hardcover reprint within 2 weeks of publication and my subsequent book advances quadrupled!

Turns out it went gold because Waterstones systematically misfiled it under "crime", not SF/F …

Show threadHollieK3d ago
@cstross SF/F Crime, just emphasising the last part of the label.
Show threadCharlie Stross3d ago
@HollieK72 Yes well, Crime outsells SF/F by about 3:1.
Show threadMark Whybird3d ago
@cstross @HollieK72 Your experience is a supporting data point for my theory that SF (and also F to a lesser degree) is not a genre by itself but a sort of meta-genre or theme category, in which you can place almost any other genre (eg crime, mystery, political thrilller, whatever).
Show threadRay McCarthy
@whybird @cstross @HollieK72
You can have multiple "genres" in any novel. It's artificial to help advertising and sometimes makes for shallower picks by the publishers because they want it to fit a box.
Riders of the Purple Sage has romance, adventure, Robinsonade etc.
Dune and early Pern novels are far more Fantasy than SF.
Forbidden Plant is based on "The Tempest".
Caves of Steel is more a detective story than SF.
May 20 at 12:19pmWeb
Show threadHollieK2d ago
@raymaccarthy @whybird @cstross You need it to fit into a box so you can shelve it in the bookshop. Otherwise you've got hundreds of sub-genres or everything shelved A-Z under Fiction.
Show threadHollieK2d ago
@raymaccarthy @whybird @cstross I deal with this issue on a small scale in a charity bookshop that contains approximately 3,000 books in total, with various categories and sub-categories, and a limited amount of space. Under Fiction, General Fiction has 16 shelves, Crime has 7 shelves, SF/F has 2 shelves, and that's it. C J Sansom is sometimes in Crime, sometimes in General Fiction, and sometimes in both at the same time.
Show threadRay McCarthy2d ago

@HollieK72 @whybird @cstross
None of the charity shops here sort the books. Nor the few surviving shops selling S/H (They sort by price!). Only the shops selling new books do it

One new manager decided to sort alphabetically, with "men" and "women" separate. That caused some comment and didn't last. He obviously knew nothing about novels.

Show threadHollieK2d ago

@raymaccarthy @whybird @cstross

"Men" and "Women", oh my!

We do have a whole upstairs department dedicated to Books and Media, covering 20 bookcases, which is more than you get in your average charity shop. However, some of the other shops in our group have 12,000 or 15,000 books, and I'm dead jealous! We need to have some idea what sells, hence the categories and sub-categories.

Show threadRay McCarthy2d ago

@HollieK72 @whybird @cstross

Though there were no George Elliot titles.

Probably some of the Romance genre titles with female names were written by men…

Show threadMark Whybird2d ago

@HollieK72 @raymaccarthy @cstross Revised theory: in computing terms, the genres should be treated a “tags” rather than categories.

This doesn’t help much in organising a bookshop, unless you wanted to just go A-Z and physically put colour-coded tags on all the books.

Show threadRay McCarthy2d ago

@whybird @HollieK72 @cstross
Curiously that actually works!
Long ago most SF in the local Library was published by Gollancz. Yellow hardback and a big G at the bottom. Later they actually put SF in a black circle at the top (1971?).
So I picked those. Easy.
Got my horizons widened because many were not SF. I discovered Victor Canning.

My paper library is about 2500+ & disorganised.
I have ebooks in Calibre. I could put the paper titles & location in it and then no need to physically tag books.

Show threadCharlie Stross2d ago

@whybird @HollieK72 @raymaccarthy

Shockingly, the publisher/distributor databases shifted to tagging years ago (for ebooks)—you can see the effects on Amazon, Kobo, et al. Problem 1: inaccurate tagging. Problem 2: only three sub-categories per book. Problem 3: search is badly supported and fixing it requires coordination across platforms.

I mean, it's a thing: it's just a thing that's been done badly.

Show threadMark Whybird2d ago
@cstross @HollieK72 @raymaccarthy Ha! And *of course* they did it badly!
Show threadRay McCarthy2d ago
@whybird @cstross @HollieK72
Deliberately, and poisoned with sponsored results that are completely irrelevant.
Show threadRay McCarthy2d ago

@cstross @whybird @HollieK72
Amazon search is so broken (attempt to give as many results as possible) that searching them on Qwant is easier.

Kobo's search is a bit better for title or author. Sometimes for Series.

Only my own Calibre library is any good to search by tag/category/collection/series/year.
Also for ebooks has a Full Text Search!
I can filter by author or series and then search with logic terms only those books!
Great for research or tracking characters in my own writing.

Show threadRay McCarthy2d ago
@whybird @HollieK72 @cstross
An app for the customer in a bookshop is less bad than QR codes in a cafe / restaurant?
Then physical books can be in multiple categories with cover view, yet spine view only on shelf to save space.
App tells you which bookcase & shelf.
Show threadMark Whybird2d ago

@raymaccarthy @HollieK72 @cstross You’ve made me think: a crowdsourced database of (potentially) every book; each one is tagged with whatever people want; mainly genres but even stuff you or I might think irrelevant (gender of author for at least one person mentioned!); people thumbs-up or thumbs-down on the relevance of each tag to the book. (Goodreads could have become this before the enshittifiers bought it.)

But here’s the key: bookshops can subscribe to it; for that they get sort of “check in/check out” by isbn inventory facility. Premium tier gets price guidance and promoted results in the worldwide inventory search — OMG SEND DOCTOROW’S HENCHPEOPLE TO BEAT ME UP IMMEDIATELY!!!

Show threadCharlie Stross2d ago
@whybird @raymaccarthy @HollieK72 You seem to be unaware of the rule of thumb (in the book trade) that 80% of sales of a given book occur within 90 days of publication. There are occasional outliers, but it undercuts the value of your proposed crowdsourced database to booksellers. And who's going to run/pay for hosting it?
Show threadRay McCarthy2d ago

@cstross @whybird @HollieK72
Sorry, who suggested a crowd sourced database?

I agree publishers seem to have.the rule of thumb.

Any computerised bookshop already has a database of their stock. I was thinking of them leveraging that.
EDIT
Just up. I see Mark Whybird @whybird suggested Crowdsourced. That won't work well for various reasons.

Show threadHollieK2d ago
@raymaccarthy @cstross @whybird And non-computerised bookshops (like charity bookshops, for instance) don't have a database of their stock. The only database for our bookshop exists in my head, and only goes as far as me being aware that we might have a certain book in, or definitely haven't ever seen it.
Show threadHollieK2d ago
@raymaccarthy @cstross @whybird Sometimes I'd like a computerised database of our stock, so I could actually track which individual books sold, and which got culled, but I'm pretty sure we couldn't afford one.
Show threadRay McCarthy2d ago
@HollieK72 @cstross @whybird
The actual database can be free.
There are free applications.
The cost is the work of setting it up, which is why it's only viable for big shops / chains with POS tills and ordering all on computer.
I've done video library & college computer systems in the past. The customer had to enter everything!
Hence only my ebooks are catalogued as the database (Calibre) mostly gets the metadata from the downloaded ebook (Gutenberg, Standard, GlobalGrey, Kobo, Amazon, Humble).
Show threadHollieK2d ago
@raymaccarthy @cstross @whybird On the other hand, people can read the blurb on the back of the book, and decide whether it fits their requirements. That's probably good enough for 90% of the people 90% of the time (percentages plucked out of thin air in the best tradition).
Show threadCharlie Stross2d ago
@HollieK72 @raymaccarthy @whybird I'd agree 100% with that if not for the problem that book cover blurbs are marketing copy and can be wildly divergent from the actual material because their priority is to sell product, not accurately synopsize content.
Show threadRay McCarthy2d ago
@cstross @HollieK72 @whybird
Blurbs are getting worse. I've seem many now that are so wrong they must be LLM-AI.
Show threadHollieK2d ago
@raymaccarthy @cstross @whybird So is there anything that we can trust about the descriptions of a book? If marketing is going to lie in the blurb, it will also lie with the tags.
Show threadCharlie Stross2d ago
@HollieK72 @raymaccarthy @whybird To some extent it's also on the editors and the authors. I have limited insight as I'm with Orbit (in the UK) and Tor.com, who run cover designs and marketing copy past me for comment before publication, and if I spot errors I suggest fixes (and they listen). But I can see the times changing and other imprints or publishers being cut to the bone on all sides …
Show threadHollieK2d ago
@cstross @raymaccarthy @whybird Not to mention publishers that knowingly push AI-generated books who are going to be trying hard to convince people that they're selling legitimate products.
Show threadCharlie Stross2d ago
@HollieK72 @raymaccarthy @whybird I think AI-generated books are being pushed by unscrupulous grifters trying to game the Kindle Unlimited payments algorithm, and by Big 5 execs who have drunk the AI kool-aid and are too far removed from the actual publishers/production managers/marketers to hear how bad the product is. Once the AI vendors pivot to milking their customers and the token costs rise to reflect the real cost of providing the service they'll get cold feet in a hurry.
Show threadRay McCarthy2d ago
@cstross @HollieK72 @whybird
The KU model cheats legitimate authors and invades user privacy.
A real library has to buy a copy. Amazon get it free.
In some countries there is also a per loan small royalty. Anonymous and purely per borrow.
Amazon monitors which pages you view and how long. That's part of reason for cutting off older Kindles. They can't run sufficiently controlling and surveillance firmware.
Show threadRay McCarthy2d ago
@HollieK72 @cstross @whybird
Older blurbs (< 2023?) better than current. I've seen older republished books with rubbish new blurb.
AI can't even summarise. It shortens.
There is no substitute for a human reading the book and doing synopsis (which is too long for blurb and has spoilers) and blurb (which should not have important spoilers).
Show threadHollieK2d ago
@raymaccarthy @cstross @whybird Ditto for tags, etc. And who does all of this? The author, the marketing team, the readers? Who gets rid of bad blurbs, synopses, and tags?
Show threadMark Whybird2d ago
@HollieK72 @raymaccarthy @cstross My initial off-the-cuff idea was readers tagging and upvoting/downvoting accuracy of tags.
Show threadMark Whybird2d ago
@raymaccarthy @HollieK72 @cstross Nice!
Show threadCharlie Stross2d ago
@raymaccarthy @whybird @HollieK72 The crowdsourced database was in the toot I was replying to (which you seem to have missed).
Show threadRay McCarthy2d ago
@cstross @whybird @HollieK72
Yes, just re-joined. Out of coffee error. I see it now.
Show threadHollieK2d ago
@raymaccarthy @cstross @whybird Out of coffee error forgiven. Get coffee!
Show threadMark Whybird2d ago

@cstross @raymaccarthy @HollieK72 I had the secondhand bookshops in mind, but also book consumers wanting “show me a sci-fi spy thriller” or “give me crime books (even the ones also marked sci-fi)”

Db itself could be cheap to host; keep it simple: just ISBN and tags primarily (maybe some other basics like title, author, publisher), but text only. It’s the setup and website that’s harder; but anyway that’s why I wondered about the 2nd hand booksellers subscribing… might add more complexity than it’s worth though.

Show threadHollieK2d ago
@whybird @cstross @raymaccarthy If consumers want that, would it be more effective if they subscribed to the database, rather than expecting bookshops to do it?
Show threadHollieK2d ago
@whybird @cstross @raymaccarthy Most customers ask "Where are the Crime books?" or "Do you have any Lucinda Riley books?", both of which I can answer pretty easily. I can also check the stockroom for any Lucinda Riley books, but won't be hauling out all the Crime books from the stockroom on the off-chance that this customer will want one that's not already on the shelves. I can probably check blurbs to find thrillers that are also sci-fi, but the chances are I won't have a book the customer wants. If the customer can specify some sci-fi thrillers, I can say if we have them. I think it's going to be too much work and complexity for not enough returns. I can and do also keep notes of books that customers are looking for, but we have no control over what books come in.
Show threadCharlie Stross2d ago

@HollieK72 @whybird @raymaccarthy Yes, absolutely. Bookshops want to sell books; consumers want to know which books they want to read: These goals are not aligned.

It sounds like you want to reinvent Delicious Library (which alas is now in the maintenance-only software afterlife phase):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delicious_Library

Delicious Library - Wikipedia

Show threadHollieK2d ago
@cstross @whybird @raymaccarthy I will absolutely offer books to customers if they've asked for something, even if it's a really specific thing, like a book of poetry for a lady who will be 100 soon, which I was very smug about finding, but there is a limit to how much time I should be spending on that compared to refilling shelves where there are gaps or culling books that no one is buying.
Show threadMark Whybird2d ago

@HollieK72 @cstross @raymaccarthy I suppose what I want as a customer is that when I walk in and ask for the crime section, I do get to see Mr Stross’s Halting State and Rule 34 - but I ALSO get them if I walk in and ask for sci-fi, without you necessarily stocking two copies of the book… and I want a generalised solution that works for any number of and combination of genres.

It’s a tale as old as books, probably.

Yeah, I don’t ask for much… /s

Show threadHollieK2d ago

@whybird @cstross @raymaccarthy

Not a lot, really /s

You could order Halting State and Rule 34 from the bookshop if they haven't got them in the SF/F section, but you're going to have to wait. That's for a shop selling new books.

For a second-hand charity bookshop, I don't have either of them in, and have also never seen them being donated, because people hold onto SF/F and we don't get much in, in any case. I can't order them, and even if I ask for SF/F from the warehouse, I probably won't get them. For any particular book, I can tell you if we're likely to have it, or if we definitely haven't got it, and I can check where it might be, both on the shelves and in the stockroom. I try very hard not to have two copies of any book out on the shelves and in the stockroom, because that's taking up space that could be used by another book. That's as much as I can do, because at the end of the day, it's the number of books sold that counts.

In other words, you're asking a lot!

Show threadMark Whybird2d ago

@HollieK72 @cstross @raymaccarthy I know I am - and that was just an example where we know specific cross-genre books. I want it to work generally, where I can browse and serindipitiously find new books you happen to have that have some aspect of my preferred genre in them, even if the publisher labeled them with one of the other genres they might encompass.

In the absence of a magic 50-dimensional bookshop or one that rearranges itself on demand in multiple ways at once for multiple customers, I’m back to physical tags: all the books are just A-Z by author, but all that have a sci-fi aspect have green “sci-fi” mini post-it tags, and all that have crime a red “crime” one, and so forth. The crime lover browses about in that book-lover’s way, looking at all the reds, and comes across this book that has both green AND red on it…

(And now we have a meet-cute where the sci-fi lover and the crime lover reach for the same book at the same moment; their hands touch… and now we are in a purple “romance” tagged story! 😉)

This is all just a dream, of course. I don’t think it could practically work in any way that makes economic sense.

Show threadRay McCarthy2d ago
@HollieK72 @whybird @cstross
When I was a teen (and earlier) the all the libraries sorted non-fiction by subject and indeed fiction only by A to Z with separate children's section, though there was no ban on children borrowing the grown-up's books.