Mastodawn

Amy Diehl, Ph.D.2d ago

Study (N=2,689) of men (18-34) finds 95.1% reported using strategies to get a woman to have sex who they knew did not want sex & had not consented; 65% successful. Consistent physical pressure & verbal coercion common; overt force, physical restraint, pain also used. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/08862605261432630

@amydiehl OK, but the paper was focused on that demographic:

"This research was designed to focus on men who admit having intentionally and knowingly sexually aggressed against a woman who they knew did not want sex nor consented to it, including strategies to overcome her reluctance, circumstances, motivations, and positive and negative outcomes."

@gabriel That is a misreading, IMO. The criteria for participation were, "Men were eligible if they self-identified as men, were in the age range 18 to 34 years, and reported having had a sexual encounter with a woman in the past 2 years."

Also, if it were only for those who admittedly coerced, etc., then the percentage would have been 100, not 95.1.

@LeslieBurns @amydiehl

I'm not misreading, I'm quoting the paper.

Also, there may be subtleties that lead to the question to not have 100%. Maybe someone identifies as a sexual attacker but not as a strategist. Or they were misidentified and they are not part of the universe. Or...

@LeslieBurns @amydiehl

I'm not claiming that the percentage of men who have sexually assaulted women is not 95%. I'm claiming that this paper was not set up to answer that question. And the quote seems to point into that direction.

Leslie Burns 2d ago

@gabriel You are quoting what the authors said the intention of the study was. I was quoting what the authors said the actual criteria for participation was.

@LeslieBurns @amydiehl

https://col.social/@gabriel/116399039808888180

Leslie Burns 2d ago

@gabriel Pretty sure we heard you the first time.

I simply think you're wrong.

@LeslieBurns @amydiehl

That's fine, we can disagree. Have a nice evening.

QueerCat_Pansexual

@gabriel This is not a disagreement bro, you're straight-up misinterpreting the study

@LeslieBurns @amydiehl

Ted Lemon 2d ago

@LeslieBurns @gabriel @amydiehl

One interesting thing they don't correct for is men who didn't have sex during the two-year period prior to the study.

Also, I worry this will be used to conclude, a la Dworkin/McKinnon that men are just naturally this way, rather than that we are socialized to behave this way pretty much from birth, and have to learn our way out of it, hopefully before we do something awful. The most commonly reported coercive technique is "tells her what she wants to hear..."

Ted Lemon 2d ago

@LeslieBurns @gabriel @amydiehl

I mention this because it's been very clear to me for a long time that boys and young men need clear and explicit education on how to behave towards members of the desired sex (as do girls and young women).

And that ain't happening.

And bashing won't help.

I also concluded the same, that this could be used to argue that "men are this way". And while sexual aggression is a serious problem that is under-reported, a 95% is just too high. That's why I think it is important to clarify the number, and the context.

Ted Lemon 2d ago

Unfortunately if this goes viral that won't be effective, because the first message is what people generally remember.

I grew up during the Dworkin/McKinnon period, and bear the scars—that's why I remember their names.

The problem with their work is that they just figured out who to blame, not what to do to fix the situation, and those of us who took them seriously wound up hating ourselves for the misdeeds of others instead of doing anything about it.

スパックマンクリス 2d ago

@LeslieBurns @gabriel @amydiehl

I believe you are correct. There are some language issues with the writing, imho, that may cause some confusion, but the paper clearly states that:

"Of the final sample of 2,689 men, 95.1% reported having recently used at least one of the strategies to force a woman to have sex" (Results section, para 1)

They then say that the ones who did not were demographically indistinguishable from the 95% group.

Likely the 95% group then received follow up questions.

スパックマンクリス 2d ago

@LeslieBurns @gabriel @amydiehl

Certainly, the wording of the original request for participants may have turned off many men who would never use the strategies --- the wording was basically "let's hear the men's side of the story". If you have never been in a he-said / she-said situation, you may not have signed up for the research.

My feeling is that this is important research, and further research is needed.

@chris_spackman

I think is really valuable work, and it is important to document in the literature the strategies that are used by aggressors to force woman to have sex.

But I also think that in this particular instance finding information towards their RQ1 (what % of men..) is in conflict with their other RQ (how effective are the strategies, etc).

スパックマンクリス 2d ago

@LeslieBurns @gabriel @amydiehl

Let me emphasize the "may not have signed up". We don't know. (So, more research.)

BUT, the number of men who do these things should be as close to zero as nature / nurture allows. There will always be some who are willing to hurt others for their own selfish reasons. However, there is no ethically acceptable reason for the # in any given society to be in double digits, much less 60, 80, or 95%.

We can do better. Seems like we could barely do worse.