Mastodawn

Mos, 2E40h, beste reiziger, toucher of computers

Dutch non-binary people who had their passport updated: should I get an x or just go with a v?

An x would be more accurate for me but I could live with a v. I'd like to have more weight behind me when complaining about systems that don't accept nonbinary people (gendering on insurance letters comes to mind) but I don't like the idea of not being able to go to certain countries. I don't want to have to go to court but I don't want to feel like I'm compromising on this either.
And I don't know how to weigh these things against each other.
Would love to hear more viewpoints, tips, experiences, etc

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Mos, 2E40h, beste reiziger, toucher of computers Apr 5

Gonna annoy my followers with this post every day until it gets joboosted /j

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Flor, trouble Apr 5

@alyeska part of why I didn't try to get an X was that I didn't want even more unwanted attention when traveling to the US, but now going there would be a bad idea anyway.

I don't really care about what's in my documents anymore, as long as it never gets changed to M. The name I get called most often is different from my legal name, which is different from my previous legal name. Identity is more fluid than documents can ever be, and it's not as if showing my passport would stop anyone misgendering me.

Maybe if enough people had an X it would help convince organizations to address them with nonbinary words. Personally I don't even want that anymore, because I feel nonbinary gets misunderstood by cis people as a single gender that gets policed even more than woman. Instead of giving freedom from boxes, an X would place me in an even smaller box.

All that said, if you have the money, do what feels right. Being a bit happier for the rest of your life is worth a lot.

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solo Apr 6

@alyeska is "V" one of the gendered markers for a dutch passport, or is it like a second nonbinary marker that you can get?

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Mos, 2E40h, beste reiziger, toucher of computers Apr 6

@solonovamax
V in this case is just the dutch translation of F

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F3715H Apr 6

@alyeska good question.

Having anything but one's (cisbinary) AGAB basically bars one from a shitton of shitholes like the USA, so I don't see that as a net negative, but rather as a reminder to stay away from such places.

Your health, wellbeing and identity are not negotiable.

Said nations don't deserve the honour of a visit by yours truly…

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Mx. Alba

Apr 6

@alyeska

Hi, I'm a Dutch non-binary person "with an X". Indeed it's nice to have that extra weight to force companies and institutions towards accepting and respecting non-binary folks. But progress is slow. If you get the X, be ready to be a pioneer venturing out into hostile territory, actively improving things for non-binary people who come after you. For example, I'm now on a lengthy process with the National Ombudsman to hopefully ensure that the police don't misgender non-binary and trans people in official police reports. Someone else I know is in proceedings to make sure insurance company FBTO respect non-binary people. There is still a lot to do and you will be at the forefront.

By the way there's a nice Discord for people who have or want "an X" called Project X. I can pass you the link in DM if you want. There's also an event organized by TransAnders/TransVisie on Saturday 18 April especially for people who want an X or want to inform themselves better about that, with people who already have the X (including myself) and Kim Smienk, the lawyer who has represented the majority of Dutch people who got an X, answering any questions you might have. I can DM you further details of you're interested.

Oh and the travel thing? Countries I can't enter with my X like the United Arab Emirates, Saudi Arabia, the US and possibly even tbe UK, I wouldn't want to visit anyway.

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Mx. Alba

Apr 6

@alyeska

Also, thank you @mees for boosting this so I saw it!

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Mees 🔻Apr 6

@MxAlba @alyeska and I saw it through @superball . The fediverse is doing it's thing

@mees hell yeah ✊🏼❤️

@alyeska Ooh, i can help, i have an X!

So for me part of the reason was more that the procedure for getting an X does not have to involve going through a psychologist for approval (iets met fuck het VU, trans zorg NU). And part was that converting to the opposite binary gender would not be correct either (OTOH, it would be not as incorrect). And part was to have legal weight behind complaining about gendering.

The court procedure was relatively simple: i paid the lawyer (Kim Smienk, who back then seemed to do all gender X cases; haven't checked in a while) a bunch of money to handle everything. She got me to write a page in my own words why i want the name/gender change (so i explained that i've known myself to be trans for a very long time, used maths to come up with a good gender neutral roepnaam and i was getting tired of being accused of fraud by the americans/french/... for signing my emails with my own name but my ID saying the old one.) Lawyer then sent a bunch of letters to various legal institutions that responded with a court date a few months later.

At the court appointment i had to show up wearing some nice clothing but nothing too formal (tip: they have metal detectors there, make sure your collar is either removable or non-magnetic

). Then the lawyer repeated what she said in the letters, then i repeated what i said about my gender on that page. Then i handed the judge a book published under my own name to prove this is who everyone already knows me as.

A month or so later the change was approved (the lawyer said back then there had thus far been no rejections at all in the procedure, no idea how it is now...) and three months after that i got a letter from the birth municipality with a corrected birth certificate, and a few weeks after that i got a new passport and driving license.

It did cost a bunch of money, €1200 for the lawyer (this is subsidizable; do it while you're still studying!) and a couple hundred in documents (but that was my own fault for doing it just a bit too close to my old passport's validity date, so i had to get an intermediate driving license/passport under the old name which lasted 2 months before being shreddered).

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Anya

Apr 6

@alyeska

As for not being able to enter certain countries: i don't reliably pass as either binary gender now so either of those would give me quite a bit of hassle in those countries. For example, i don't think i would be particularly safe trying to enter the US with any gender marker. i haven't tried going to/through any arabic countries or Singapore; i heard (from an Australian) they tend to be very annoying about gender markers, even binary ones, but let (rich white) foreigners through after the hassle. And to be honest, being able to go "i can't come because they will 100% imprison me" tends to discourage your colleagues from scheduling meetings in places i didn't want to go anyway due to hatecrimes.

i travel a lot and booking things (plane, Eurostar, hostels with one-gender dormitories) is consistently broken even within Europe. i tend to need to call customer service half of the time. (Often they say: flip a coin to pick a random gender and call us to have it corrected.) Being handed an official goverment paper form and getting to draw in my own checkbox for gender feels like a victory though. For this, you do need to be a bit perverted about bureaucracy and the ability to use a phone call to make it someone else's problem.

In all, the X makes my life a bit harder, but it's a manageable challenge. Having the right name makes my life a lot easier. And the happiness from a correct passport matters too.