@johncarlosbaez
> formalization tends to impose consensus

I'm not sure people are getting your point. The way I see it, formalization tends to make people subconsciously think in terms of The One And Only Truth -- and thus consensus.

But we know that in mathematics, there are always other paths, and truths follow from axioms / axiom schemas, which themselves can vary.

Or perhaps I'm missing your point, too.

@dougmerritt - You got my point. Working in Lean or any computer system for formalization, you need to submit to the already laid down approaches, or spend a lot of time rewriting things.

I added a quote from Kevin Buzzard to emphasize the problem:

Kevin Buzzard says "It [formalization? Lean?] forces you to think about mathematics in the right way."

But there's no such thing as "the" right way!

@johncarlosbaez @dougmerritt

This is just the beginning.

Current systems are the FORTRAN and Pascal of proof systems; they are for building pyramids--imposing, breathtaking, static structures built by armies pushing heavy blocks into place.

What we need is for someone to invent the Lisp of proof systems. Something that helps individuals to think new thoughts.

@maxpool @johncarlosbaez
Yes, well, moving past John's point:

Easier said than done. Current things like Lean are lots better than the systems of years ago, but -- do you have any specific ideas?

I used to follow that area of technology, but I somewhat burned out on it. For now, Terry Tao et al is getting good mileage out of Lean.

I suppose there's some analogy with the period of shift from Peano axioms to ZFC and beyond.

@johncarlosbaez @dougmerritt @MartinEscardo @JacquesC2 @pigworker Somewhat unexpectedly, I find myself on the same side as @xenaproject on this one, I suppose because I read "the right way" differently from @johncarlosbaez

Formalized mathematics makes us think "the right way" in the sense that it requires mental hygiene, it encourages better organization, it invites abstraction, and it demands honesty.

Formalized mathematics does not at all impose "One and Only Truth", nor does it "nail things down with rigidity" or "impose concensus". Those are impressions that an outsider might get by observing how, for the first time, some mathematicians have banded together to produce the largest library of formalized mathematics in history. But let's be honest, it's miniscule.

Even within a single proof assistant, there is a great deal of freedom of exploration of foundations, and there are many different ways to formalize any given topic. Not to mention that having several proof assistants, each peddling its own foundation, has only contributed to plurality of mathematical thought.

Current tools are relatively immature and do indeed steal time from creative thought to some degree, although people who are proficient in their use regularly explore mathematics with proof assistants (for example @MartinEscardo and myself), testifying to their creative potential.

Finally, any fear that Mathlib and Lean will dominate mathematical thought, or even just formalized mathematics, is a hollow one. Mathlib will soon be left in the dust of history, but it will always be remembered as the project that brought formalized mathematics from the fringes of computer science to the mainstream of mathematics.

@andrejbauer - "Formalized mathematics makes us think "the right way" in the sense that it requires mental hygiene, it encourages better organization, it invites abstraction, and it demands honesty."

I did read it differently. I was really worrying that Kevin meant formalizing mathematics in *Lean* forces us to think the right way. But in fact I don't think formalizing mathematics at all makes us think "the" right way. It has good sides, which you mention, so it's *a* right way to do mathematics. But it also has bad sides. Mostly, it doesn't encourage radical new ideas that don't fit well in existing formalisms. Newton, Euler, Dirac, Feynman and Witten are just a few of the most prominent people who broke out of existing frameworks, didn't think formally, and did work that led to a huge growth of mathematics. If you say "those people are physicists, not mathematicians", then you're slicing disciplines differently than me. I find their ideas more mathematically interesting than most mathematics that fits into existing frameworks.

@dougmerritt @MartinEscardo @JacquesC2 @pigworker @xenaproject

Having spent several years in the trenches of formalized mathematics by now, I'm actually more sympathetic @johncarlosbaez 's line of thinking than I used to be, but I think there's nothing about formalized mathematics *per se* that forces this to be the case.

The way I've come to use proof assistants/etc. over the years actually, counterintuitively, ends up making math more "empirical," in a way. My informal proofs and ideas become "hypotheses" I can "test" by attempting to find a formalism and suitable abstractions that make them checkable by a computer. And like any good scientific experiment, this quickly becomes an iterative process—take some informal ideas, attempt to formalize them, get some data back about what ends up being difficult, refine the ideas, repeat until a satisfactory equilibrium is found. And this process itself can lead to a lot of "a ha" moments and "radical" new ideas, itself.

As already noted, however, this process carries the risk of railroading one's thoughts into those ways of thinking that are more easily formalized in a particular system. But imo this is a failure of that particular system to be sufficiently syntactically/semantically flexible, and not of formalism/interactive theorem proving in general.

The future I hope for, and which I am actively building toward, is one in which we have general systems for defining, simulating, and verifiably translating between different logical/formal systems, so that if someone has a new mathematical idea they want to try out it's easy to get up and running with a system for testing it and relating it to other frameworks.

@andrejbauer @dougmerritt @MartinEscardo @JacquesC2 @pigworker @xenaproject

@cbaberle said "And this process itself can lead to a lot of "a ha" moments and "radical" new ideas, itself."

I have found the same thing. When I am working on things that are not directly about formalized mathematics, but with using a proof assistant as a blackboard (echoing Martin's wonderful phrasing), I feel that I am much freer to make wild conjectures, because I can disprove them equally quickly.

The numbers of "models" of quantum programming based on traced monoidal categories (that did not in fact work) is staggering. The failures were usually quite subtle. My co-author(s) and I had convinced ourselves via 'paper math' that they worked, for each and every one of them.

@johncarlosbaez @andrejbauer @dougmerritt @MartinEscardo @pigworker @xenaproject

@mc These areas might be more painful, but they contain mistakes. I found a few measure theoretic mistakes in some recent papers / theses over the last year or two.

@JacquesC2 @cbaberle @johncarlosbaez @andrejbauer @dougmerritt @MartinEscardo @pigworker @xenaproject

@mc

You don't need to formalize all prior art to be able to do what you want in blackboard mode.

For example, @de_Jong_Tom and I used a result by Mike Shulman, which was published and also formalized in Rocq/HoTT, in TypeTopology.

We didn't want to formalize it (although I have been entertaining the possibility of formalizing it, to understand it better, in my own terms - formalizing for the sake of thinking about it).

So we just used it as a hypothesis to our desired result. That is, we proved "Shulman's result implies our result".

This doesn't establish the ultimate truth of our result in TypeTopology.

But it does allow us to keep using TypeTopology as a blackboard, without worrying about formalizing everything that every mathematician has done in this planet in order to carry on.

And without any lack of honesty. All assumptions are explicitly given. The adopted `--safe` flag guarantees that. There are no postulates. Just explicit assumptions.

@ohad @JacquesC2 @cbaberle @johncarlosbaez @andrejbauer @dougmerritt @pigworker @xenaproject