PhilMar 29
Charlie Stross

RE: https://mstdn.social/@Remittancegirl/116311624371729823

We REALLY need to reintroduce the Roman custom of Damnatio Memoriae—"damnation of memory", excision of a name and person from the written record: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damnatio_memoriae

Mar 29 at 11:04amWeb
Show threadRootWyrm 🇺🇦Mar 29
@cstross I'd also point out the Memory Hole, but with LLMs issuing bans of 1984, that's just way too fucking on the nose.
Show threadMr. Lance E Sloan (IRL) 👤Mar 29
@rootwyrm @cstross
LLMs are banning "1984"‽ Tell us more! This is the first I've heard of it.
Show threadFeòragMar 30
@sloanlance @rootwyrm @cstross It’s in the news stories about the school librarian in Manchester.
Show threadjoatMar 29

@cstross *after* he's in jail. No forgetting what he did this time.

Edit: typo

Show threadNikkileah 🎮🚄🏳️‍⚧️🇬🇧Mar 29

@cstross if you're hearing that name, the Zone has been flooded with shit.

I'd like to opt out of the Zone.

Show threadDrew 🇵🇭 ♾️Mar 29
@cstross No, we really don't. We have to learn from all this.
Show threadNonya BidnissMar 29
@drewtowler @cstross I'm afraid I agree on this, we can never forget this. But now while we're boiling in the soup I do understand M. Morris' feeling.
Show threadPasswordsarehard4Mar 29
@Nonya_Bidniss @drewtowler @cstross strike his name and replace it with The Mistake. Let that be his legacy
Show threadJody Lemoine CD 🇨🇦Mar 29

@drewtowler @cstross Going on about what was done, why it was bad, and why it shouldn’t happen again can be easily done without the constant mention of someone’s name.

Some take perverse pleasure in hearing their names spread widely regardless of whether the context is good or bad. Denying them that isn’t a bad thing.

“Love me or hate me. Both are in my favour. If you love me, I'll always be in your heart. If you hate me, I'll always be in your mind.” - Vivekananda

Show threadRaymondPierreL3Mar 29
@cstross
That’s what happened to me when I had to give up my Belgian nationality… it didn’t hurt one bit ;)
Show threadWombatadonMar 29
@cstross It was done in New Zealand with the person who committed the massacres at mosques there a few years ago. I think now only mentioned by name in court papers
Show threadJuno JoveMar 29
@cstross Do we, though.
I think that makes it easier to avoid learning from history...
Show threadaspraggMar 29
@cstross Considering which politician from the last 50 years would make the most liberal and gleeful use of this custom, and in which directions they'd aim it, IMHO we probably don't want to do that.
Show threadMeznor UNGRATEFUL MIDDLE POWERMar 29
@cstross as long as Americans don't forget the many lessons they need to learn from this utter fuckup they've unleashed onto the world and widespread harm caused by it.
Show threadEmanuele CariatiMar 29

@cstross I got the joke. But Damnatio Memoriae is very dangerous. In Italy we still have fascist architecture and symbols. The reason we don’t reap them apart and we still talk about Mussolini is to remind ourselves about the mistakes we’ve made in the past and how to avoid making them again.

If you don’t remember your mistakes you will inevitably repeat them again

Show threadAnnelies Kamran, Ph.D.Mar 29
@cstross @hypostase
A) we already do this to people on the regular (see for example https://aus.social/@oscarjiminy/116310770078870754) and
B) we need to remember so we don't repeat this
TinDrum (@[email protected])

Attached: 1 image #history #research #credit #fuckArthurDeanInPerpetuity

Aus.Social
Show threadWeekend EditorMar 29

@cstross

Didn't work for Herostartus (burned the Artemision) or Akhenaten (tried monotheism in Egypt), or... well, lots of examples.

@davidbrin has periodically suggested, instead of suppressing their names, we legally force a name change to an embarrassing obscenity & require its use in public. (Real name can be in a footnote, but only one time per publication, with limits on type size.)

Just *imagine* the contest to propose a new name for Trump.

Show threadDarwin WoodkaMar 29

@weekend_editor @cstross @davidbrin

Santorum...

Show threadWeekend EditorMar 30

@darwinwoodka @cstross @davidbrin

An excellent example! In this case, his name *itself* is turned into something embarrassing.

(I mean, of course, that the *word* is an excellent example, not the politician.)

Show threadMr. Lance E Sloan (IRL) 👤Mar 29
@cstross
Sounds like a common practice of fascist rulers.
Show threaddstuMar 29
@cstross this plus corruption of blood. Under the current constitution, you'll need an amendment to institute that. I think it would send the right message.
Show threadNu ModularMar 29
@cstross One of the saddest parts of cyclic behavior is, something worse arising 'next time around'.
Show threadJavierMar 29
@cstross
I think this case falls squarely in the "never forget, never repeat" of last-century Germany
Show threadOctopi Wall StreetMar 29
@cstross @pluralistic @Remittancegirl I look forward to a future in which the only mention of Trump's name in the media comes in the form of headlines that say "Donald Trump still dead”.
Show threadDarwin WoodkaMar 29

@octows @cstross @pluralistic @Remittancegirl

SNL Generalissimo Francisco Franco style...

Show threadThe Queen of Weltschmerz🏳️‍⚧️Mar 29
@darwinwoodka @octows @cstross @pluralistic @Remittancegirl Or Margaret Thatcher, for those of us on this side of the pond
Show threadxs4me2Mar 29

@cstross

This is what actually should happen indeed, was only yesterday discussing this when the example of Akhenaton in ancient Egypt came to my mind…
Erased from all official records…

@Remittancegirl

Show threadNicole ParsonsMar 29

@xs4me2 @cstross @Remittancegirl

Imperial China's version of this was "Nine Generations".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_familial_exterminations

The six dynasties bankrolling Project 2025 should keep this in mind.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/nov/28/project-2025-heritage-foundation-hack

https://www.aclu.org/news/civil-liberties/project-2025-offers-dystopian-view-of-america

Bradley, Koch, Coors, Scaife Mellon, Seid, Uihlein

https://www.desmog.com/2024/08/14/project-2025-billionaire-donor-heritage-foundation-donald-trump-jd-vance-charles-koch-peter-coors/

https://www.desmog.com/2024/10/25/project-2025-trump-mapped-how-6-billionaire-family-fortunes-fund-climate-denial/

Nine familial exterminations - Wikipedia

Show threadMolly in MissouriMar 29
@cstross one day, the first 600 years of turtle island's history after colonization will be known rightly as the warring period. Individual leader names will forgotten, as spans of time are grouped instead by man-made disasters and the aftermath- until the first stable period when the people no longer cede control of their day to day lives to the Moocher class. the warring period will be a short, violent chapter, in relation to the long story of Humanity.
Show threadOmnivoreMar 29

@cstross

“You have to bring him down with ridicule … It’s been one of my lifelong jobs – to make the world laugh at Adolf Hitler.”
Mel Brooks

Show threadFlaming CheetoMar 29
@cstross https://youtu.be/XeI2xCdWKJ0
Discommendation

YouTube
Show threadAbieMar 29
@cstross in the Biden presidency some started to call him TFG / the former guy / that fucking guy, but it's hard to keep it up with his return in power.
Show threadAllpointsMar 29
@cstross agreed, but could we start with the French custom of guillotine?
Show threadCharlie StrossMar 29
@allpoints Yup!
Show threadJonMar 29

@cstross Per Wikipedia on the formal Degradation of members of the Order of the Garter - they read aloud the order, removed the former Knight's banner, crest, helm, and sword, and kicked the former member out of the chapel and into the castle ditch. The last such formal degradation was in 1716, but recent the Andrew formerly known as Prince as struck off the rolls.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Garter

Order of the Garter - Wikipedia

Show threadDave SpectorMar 29

@cstross @Remittancegirl

Santayana has entered the chat…

​“Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” – George Santayana, The Life of Reason, 1905

Show threadJargogglesMar 29
@Dhmspector @cstross @Remittancegirl
That doesn't seem to have stopped us from repeating the past.
Show threadAssoc for Scottish LiteratureMar 29

@cstross “The Great Council Chamber in the Doge's palace is one of the most visited sites in Venice… if we observe the portraits of the doges lined up underneath the ceiling all around the perimeter of the room, we will notice that one of the faces is covered by a black cloth. Underneath it is the portrait of Doge Marino Falier, disguised in such a manner because he soiled his hands with a foul deed: he attempted to establish a dictatorship under his power.”

https://www.venetoinside.com/en/news-and-curiosities/the-black-cloth-in-the-great-council-chamber

Show threadGregMar 29
@cstross Been saying this for years. Damnatio memoriae, and also exile. Preferably to a space capsule orbiting a black hole.
Show threadRossSMar 29
@cstross disagree. The record must accurately reflect events, good and bad. Removing facts amounts to censorship.
Show threadretrimentalMar 29

@satchmo35 @cstross

Agreed. It's nice to think no one will remember the bad people/things, but that's just allowing history to repeat.

Show threadGerard Cunningham ✒️Mar 29
@cstross The number of places still bearing his name in a decade will be a barometer of public safety.
Show threadDarwin WoodkaMar 29

@cstross

Nah. I want to shame these MAGA bastards forever with what they've done to this country.

Show threadMatt BlazeMar 29
@darwinwoodka @cstross Starting in a few years, there will be giant inflatable orange babies packed away in the backs of closets across the country, occasionally discovered as people move house or do spring cleaning. "Oh, yeah, that guy", they'll remember. "What an awful time that was."
Show threadPeter HartleyMar 29
@cstross I've often thought that people with the same name as disgraced politicians (anyone else called "Liz Truss", for instance) should have the fee for a deed poll waived by the government. Their very name has been made a liability through no fault of their own.
Show threadsoftproofMar 29

@cstross And if we all stopped posting his name - in whatever mood context - guess what, he'd be forgotten PDQ.

Problem would be tho, what's left to talk about at the water cooler?

Show threadRichard K Mar 29
@cstross Herostratus has come up a few times in the https://chrono.quest game.
Chrono - A daily history game

Challenge your history skills! Arrange historical events in the correct chronological order, test your knowledge, and learn as you play. Fun and educational!

Show threadDianeMar 29

@cstross

I'm also hoping for some statuary retrofits like this one when a Ukrainian artist converted a soviet Lenin into Darth Vader.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Darth_Vader#

Statue of Darth Vader - Wikipedia

Show threadGideon HallettMar 30
@cstross I was thinking of Akhenaten just the other day, and how his name was purged from buildings and monuments after his death.
Show threadDeborah Preuss, pcc 🇨🇦6d ago
@cstross @WanderingHuman woukd it be sufficient to replace a name with an alias?
"The Fat Orange Fool", etc?
Show threadFaraiwe6d ago

@cstross eventually, we need to remove *it* from record, even.

We can leave its mugshot, hanging *behind* a toilet.