"Waow it's not like Iran has any strike capabilities we should take precautions against" - The fuckwits in charge of starting this war
Why hasn’t the public zeitgeist shifted to effective arguments like, the societal scope nepotism implied with large scale inherited wealth, intelligence is not hereditary but wealth in the present is, the inevitable failure in any system without meritocratic hierarchy, or in a much lower form of reasoning, the genius of Osama bin Laden apparent in the present system and timeline?
Had me until the last statement.
No doubt the liberal democracy of 2001 is completely foreign to that of the present, barely holding on through the judicial branch that is failing from the top?

Not particularly?

Trump represents an exceptional level of regression more than an exceptional incident in American history. Adams, Jackson, Buchanan, Johnson, Wilson, Nixon, Reagan, Bush Jr… and that’s just the ones who managed to actually get elected. That’s not counting all the near-misses and also-rans, nor taking into account just how far civil liberties have come in the USA since its inception.

We fear Trump because he’s the worst/most successful of the regressives so far, not because authoritarian backsliding was completely unknown in the US until now.

I mean, fuck’s sake, the liberal democracy of 2001 had a seated president who won through rioting, regionalism, and corruption at the highest level of government. Trump is worse as a malady (though I would argue unique as an individual and a leader), but only in intensity, not nature. The struggle against authoritarianism is one which all extant democracies have had to intermittently grapple with.

I mean, in abstract, never in the last couple of centuries has there been this same level of informative media bottleneck. Digital is totally compromised with only two relevant web crawlers. Each of those is not deterministic in results across devices. I cannot go anywhere without coming under the scrutiny of a constant accuser I am unable to address. The value of currency is negotiable by means of extortion. I have no way of participating in my local free market.

At the deepest level, democracy boils down to the right to skepticism; the right to independent thought. The right to skepticism is antithetical to systems of trust at the individual level. Measuring these two against each other, I have very little room to be skeptical and informed now, but am required to have a lot of trust. I care not for words of reciters. I care about what is measured from actions. Calling an individual a citizen while forcing them to endure life without pay for their labor is no different to me than the label of slave.

Actions measure reality. Words are always defined by use, not the other way around. We do not speak Latin now, or proto Germanic. There are slaves working in the very airports ObL used to attack the USA. The very people that were meant to stop the same thing from happening again. How much more symbolic do you need from the empirical?

I mean, in abstract, never in the last couple of centuries has there been this same level of informative media bottleneck.

Uh, I don’t think I would agree with that, at all. Even with the increased attempts to control information by multinational corporations and national governments, we’re still very far from even the level of control experienced in 18th or 19th century journalism, or 20th century mass media.

The value of currency is negotiable by means of extortion. I have no way of participating in my local free market.

I’m not sure I understand what point is being made here? What do you mean by ’negotiable by means of extortion’? Or being unable to participate in a local free market?

At the deepest level, democracy boils down to the right to skepticism; the right to independent thought. The right to skepticism is antithetical to systems of trust at the individual level. Measuring these two against each other, I have very little room to be skeptical and informed now, but am required to have a lot of trust.

I agree with your basic argument, but disagree with the estimation of the current situation. Most prior systems required much more unthinking trust and tolerated much less skepticism than the current system, even in our current fucked state.

We should absolutely demand better. It’s just not the same as saying now is the worst state it’s been in.

I care not for words of reciters. I care about what is measured from actions. Calling an individual a citizen while forcing them to endure life without pay for their labor is no different to me than the label of slave.

Who’s not getting paid for most of their labor, but being called a citizen?

Actions measure reality. Words are always defined by use, not the other way around. We do not speak Latin now, or proto Germanic. There are slaves working in the very airports ObL used to attack the USA. The very people that were meant to stop the same thing from happening again. How much more symbolic do you need from the empirical?

Ah, the TSA? A delayed paycheck isn’t the same as slavery; they are entitled to backpay as soon as the government unfucks its own budget agreement. Also, they aren’t prevented from quitting. They aren’t trapped; it’s a shitty situation, but not slavery. They continue working not because they’re forced or even necessarily because they believe in airport security, but because they know that this is a temporary interruption of their regular remuneration.

In any case, the TSA is largely security theatre. No offense to the people in the job who take it seriously and respectfully, but it’s… not much of a preventative.

I'm primarily coming from the experience of running a professional consignment business with high end bike stuff on eBay, shopify, and local. By all measures I was as successful as one can be in that situation, but the numbers are just not viable as a business due to all the businesses taking a disproportionate cut of transactions relative to the time and risk they create. For instance, PayPal is an unregulated bank that charges four times regulated banking transaction rates. eBay has not updated their systems and fees to match their bare bones operations and appropriately handle scammers when a seller has a perfect record and six figure sales numbers. In grass roots business, the smallest transactions are by far the most important. In the USA there is essentially a $5-$10 minimum shipping scam that prevents most small business models from being viable. China subsidizes logistics for these types of businesses and they have a thriving grassroots entrepreneurial market with a global footprint. Small transactions are the most critical for local business. Amazon has absolutely destroyed local retail because of the inept mismanagement of USPS at the critical bottom end of transactions. Then there are banks for the individual or business. They are also predatory and devaluing currency by several percent. On a platform like eBay, discovery can be gamed, and that is what their cut buys but it is not worth a quarter of the transaction, especially when that transaction is thousands of dollars. Add uninsured shipping to that and you are sitting right at 40% margin in fees to others under the best case scenario. Shipping insurance is quite literally an open scam. Getting anything out of them will take more time than working a minimum wage job for the same amount of money. It is a criminal scam regardless of which one you choose. With traditional keystone margin, that leaves you 10% for your time. It just isn’t viable, and that assumes you are able to source traditional keystone goods to sell. In most cases now, the margin is even less with distributors taking a bigger cut. I did the eBay thing after I got the broken neck and back. Prior, I was the Buyer for a chain of 3 bike shops. So I know the business and back end. The eBay side is not even minimum wage for the time spent, and is one damaged package away from failure at all times. Amazon, by comparison is a monolith that uses the illusion of sellers for a price fixing scam. They aggregate all inventory. There is no structured correlation between the product you list and the sale made in their system. If you list the product and ship it yourself, all you are effectively doing is setting the price for them to undercut themselves. If you are the sole source, your product will never get exposure to real views unless you pay to advertise it, and there is no regulatory validity to this extortion mechanism. The same is true of Google’s and Microsoft’s web crawler results. It does not matter who is serving results, all services are querying one or both of these, and it is these results that are not deterministic. As a grassroots business, you have no path of honest discovery, and every aspect of business is extorted by a thousand cuts. It is simply not a viable option. You can learn it the hard way if you’d like. Local retail space is way way too expensive for any digital business model to succeed, and the world has moved on to far more competitively priced Chinese goods that are not hampered by the exorbitant bottom end logistics and digital markets scams. For a disabled person like me, that is not viable, but is is one of the only mechanisms where I should have participatory access. In more broad strokes, the entire US consumer retail market is exploitive and abusive from the back end perspective of a professional Buyer. The big box stores are all rogue distributors participating in the retail market directly. This is why the market is consolidated and impenetrable by small businesses. New products and innovation is irrelevant. The state of technology and goods available do not meaningfully evolve because anyone that tries is unable to get into a market without the patronage of some elite benefactor. These are the fuckwits of inherited wealth, so meritocratic value is irrelevant. The world of the present is therefore a criminally aligned system of thieves, cronyism, and nepotism. There are no honest scales in the public forum, and all the sellers are issuing shaved currency. That fails even Hammurabi’s code. To me, an informed public is one element, but is mostly more idealistic. The local market participation and lack of an honest free market is a much larger issue in how I view the present. When I got hurt, I was holding the business together, and I mean empirically, not through a lens of self aggrandizement. We were about to open a 4th store, like rented the space, building the walls, and painting the place. Money was stretched, but I had the relationships to make it work despite defaulting accounts in the red zone. Without me, it took two months before the owners parted ways, accounts dropped, the fourth store was abandoned and accounts never really recovered. I was a shell and in no shape to return, so I did the e-commerce thing. I had all the overburden of that whole mess to offload, plus all the consignments I could pull through the shops. I have a knack for learning markets in depth where I know the items on the edges that people are looking for but unable to find. When a high end part is “not serviceable”, I pop a video on YT of how it goes together or comes apart, and start selling the parts out of the bins of spares taken off and replaced at the shops. So I am literally the only source for the items and can charge anything I want. While my inventory is free to initially explore the market. So I sold stuff like that and high end bikes. That kind of bottom end is where, in a just and fair free market, innovation should produce value, but it does not. Innovation is instead punished by a failure mode that has no recourse, and few people understand. Like you walk into one of my shops and see all the $2k-$14k bikes and are wowed. Great that is the point, and I will happily sell you one, but what you do not know is that what you see on the floor is nearly all I have of that kind of bike. Meanwhile, under your feet, on the floor under the shop, I have around 2k bikes in boxes and nearly all of them are the low end stuff you will actually purchase. As a Buyer, that low end stuff is what I stress about, and bike tubes, and socks. I am spending a fortune in preseason orders and I only care about the bottom end because the rest is easy to liquidate at cost. The bottom end is everything in retail, and that is what is inaccessible in the USA. In terms of stuff like the TSA, I care about actions. The action is that they are working and unpaid. Until this last year, I wouldn’t have said I thought ObL was meaningfully successful, but with ICE, Flock, Venezuela, Iran, the Epstein files, the million or so homeless in prisons for being disabled, elderly, or unwell, the lack of unbiased media sources, and the way we own nothing now? Yeah, I do not recognize this place any more. There is a vector connecting ObL and all of those elements. At least in terms of political narratives, that one has some teeth IMO.

… some of the more abstract economic notions I could comment about; other more specific issues of doing business I couldn’t. Overall on that front, I think I’m going to refrain from comment, because this sounds like a very shitty situation you’ve been forced into despite immense hard work.

On the other issues raised…

In terms of stuff like the TSA, I care about actions. The action is that they are working and unpaid.

Okay, but they’re only ‘unpaid’ in the sense that most of us are ‘unpaid’ for all of our work until we get our weekly, biweekly, monthly, etc, paycheck.

The action is that they’re clocking paid, not unpaid, time, which will be paid like any other working hour of their career.

They’re not doing this in the hopes that some benevolent force will remunerate them, or out of the kindness of their hearts, or because they’re being forced to at metaphorical swordpoint; they’re doing so in the expectation, like any other wage laborer, that their payment will be delivered at their next paycheck.

It’s a shit situation to have when that paycheck is sent shuffled around, and screws over a lot of people, but it’s not even close to slavery or having one’s labor taken without pay. The only question being meaningfully raised by this entire idiotic and unnecessary crisis is when they get their next paycheck, not whether they will get paid for the hours they’re putting in now.

Until this last year, I wouldn’t have said I thought ObL was meaningfully successful, but with ICE, Flock, Venezuela, Iran, the Epstein files, the million or so homeless in prisons for being disabled, elderly, or unwell, the lack of unbiased media sources, and the way we own nothing now? Yeah, I do not recognize this place any more. There is a vector connecting ObL and all of those elements. At least in terms of political narratives, that one has some teeth IMO.

ICE, sure, ICE is certainly a result, at least in part, of the post-9/11 terrorism mania.

Flock is a result of technological advancement and shitheads (inevitably) trying to take advantage of technological advancement. I don’t really know that it’s meaningfully connected to Bin Laden’s effects on the USA.

Venezuela and Iran have long been conservative targets, and honestly, we’ve done much worse during, before, and after the Cold War. They’re shameful because we should have learned from previous mistakes, especially considering the wide awareness in the popular memory of debacles like Vietnam and Iraq. And unexpected because the administration is remarkably stupid, even by Republican standards.

As for the Epstein files, the unfortunate truth is that pedophilia and rape have been widespread for a very long time amongst the politically powerful, as have been honey traps and blackmail with regards to the same. Never heard the old saying “The two things you can find in a Senator’s trunk which will end his career are a dead girl, or a live boy”? Fuck, man, sexual abuse of minors was rampant on both sides of the Iron Curtain during the Cold War, and before that it was almost universally ignored. I mean fuck, the age of consent in the UK was 10 in the 18th century AD. It’s… not a new development since Bin Laden. Nor limited to the USA or the West. About all that is remarkable is the data trail that has become available to the public, the suspected penetration of international intelligence agencies, and how aware the Justice Department was of the perpetrators - likely related to the penetration of international intelligence agencies. Rapist fuckwits running large sex trafficking circles, and powerful people frequenting them, is a very enduring problem, unfortunately.

The industrial-prison complex is not related to Bin Laden in any way, whether one wishes to regard that as fortunate or unfortunate. It was a pre-existing problem which was not meaningfully provoked or exacerbated by Biden Laden’s actions.

There has never been a norm of unbiased media sources, though certainly some sources at least try, largely those free from private funding. But that’s how it’s always been. Before broadsheets and newspapers, it was either gossip or the ‘benevolence’ of the powerful informing the lowly peons of what little it was judged they needed to know. During the period of broadsheets, it was whatever the interests of the printer were. By the time of newspapers… fuck, “Yellow Journalism” and “manufacturing consent” are terms for a reason.

Despite the rhetoric about ’owning nothing’ and being ‘happy about it’, home and car ownership rates - both of which are, by far, generally the most expensive objects the ordinary person has - are far above their pre-WW2 levels. And, for that matter, neither showed a sharp contraction in the period of the GWOT.

I don’t know man, I’m not saying you shouldn’t be pissed about all of this, because you are absolutely right to be pissed about all of it. I just don’t know that it shares a root triggering event or exacerbating factor. It’s much more systemic - and systemic across a vast array of cultures and time periods - than circumstantial.

Preciate the time and respectful grounding. There is a heavy dose of cynicism and hyperbole in what I have said. I don’t really feel anything. I’m more of an on/off switch where there is little to speak of on either side.

OsL as an argument is mostly a curiosity about impactful rhetoric… Populism to counter populism, or rather imaginative dreaming of such.

The business stuff, is real and tangible. That does piss me off.