inclementimmigrantOwlcat is using generative AI for The Expanse Osiris Reborn, but the final game will be "100% human made"
Upside, so if these guys use AI to create assets or code, none of that can be copyrighted currently under the law. Therefore if it’s not copyrightable then pirating the game and using those assets in other games is perfectly fine.
This would never hold up in court, in part due to regulatory capture, but I think this is the only thing that would stop them.
Doesnt that guy want his ai to own the copyright of the art it makes?
Oh, I’m aware of that. Just that courts will not rule against things that involve the use of AI in general. You cannot take the output directly from, but once a human gets involved they will allow it. There’s too many monied interests to allow the restrictions.
That’s the fun part of all of it though, there’s no definition or even subjective ruling of what constitutes “substantial transformation” or any running that generative AI being derivative of copyrighted material, it’s a complete legal clusterfuck of law and consequences.
But yeah, I do agree that if a running or law change came about it would definitely be in the favor of late stage capitalism.
Luminous5481 "Lawless Heathen" [they/them]Pirating the game and using those assets was always fine, no matter the circumstances, company, artist, or developer. Copyright and intellectual property is an illusion the capitalist class uses to exclude the poor from ideas they feel they can profit from.
The game containing public domain images wouldn’t make the entire game public domain. Someone with a copy of the game could distribute those particular assets though. Maybe. It depends on how much human effort was involved; an AI image can become copyrightable if enough effort was done to transform it after it was generated.
Well, fuck. At least we got Rogue Trader and the Pathfinder games before enshittification began.
Haha haha hahah what a fucking clueless comment. Gosh. I left Reddit because it was full of Israeli, Chinese and Russian shills, incels and dumb echo chamber to move to Lemmy. Funny thing, I meet the same shills, the same inbred incels and the same morons sucking each other dicks clamoring how great and mighty they are.
You’re awfully spicy today.
Did you catch the guy that put that sandpaper on your toilet seat this morning?
Or are you so full of impotent rage because he’s still out there?
oicasado
houndeyesWell… you see… 25% of the game is 100% human made!
So is every other major game company. This company just is open about it.
Only someone living under a rock can convince themselves developers arent using AI for all sorts of shit.
People are deeply unaware of the fact AI autocomplete for code has been baked I to almost every major editor for almost 2 years now, and its enabled by default, opt out.
There are 3 types of game devs now:
Very few indie developers arent using it. The vast majority of casual devs have literally no idea the “code suggestions” they get from VSCode and other IDEs are AI generated, they often just assume its part of the LSP being fancy because itll only suggest a tiny bit of inline code.
Source: I do a lot of technical interviews at my company I work at, and I interview a lot of senior and junior devs all across the board.
Almost everyone has this feature enabled still (it ships pre-enabled and is opt out) and an incredibly high percent of devs are surprised when I tell them they have to disable that for the test, because it’s AI assistance. They are often like “wait THATS AI?!?!?” and are genuinely shocked to learn this.
This % is very high for both juniors and seniors alike, its never really explicitly even made clear to you that its a feature you can disable, nor that its AI, its just there already working when you first install VSCode.
And basically everyone uses VSCode for most programming, theres other IDEs but VSCode heavily dominates as what pretty much everyone uses for every language except the small handful of ones that have their own bespoke IDEs for their use case.
But the VAST majority of game dev is C# and Lua now and a bit of python, and all of those are first class VS/VSCode languages as the IDE everyone and everything will recommend when you look up getting into it.
So yeah, no, Id estimate about 95% of game dev at this point, both amateur and professional, is using VSCode and has the AI “intellicode” feature enabled still, totally unaware they are injecting a shit tonne of AI generated code into their games.
The devs dont know it, the managers dont know it, the PR time doesnt know it, the CEO doesnt know it, no one is even aware this is a thing at most places lol. Everyone is just like “wow <language>'s VSCode plugin just has such excellent quality autocomplete and quick fix suggestions, I love it!”
Not even joking, this is how most devs are atm, they have no fuckin clue haha
This isn’t about source code, it’s about using genAI for game assets like textures and character models. Steam’s disclosure policy explicitly states it’s about things a player can see or hear.
My point is, people are throwing huge hissy fits over random barely-matters stuff like “oh my god a random asset in some corner of some room looks AI generated”
When meanwhile like 40%+ of the codebase is AI generated, but because people dont know about that they dont give a shit.
They only care because they can see it and notice it.
It comes across as shallow performative upset.
I don’t see anyone who consumes games remotely bringing up the fact coding IDEs have been AI autocompleting code for like 2 years now, no one even gives a shit.
Only when it started showing up in art assets, or hell, being used just in proof of concept stuff and devs say it wont be in the final game, people are like “oh mah dawg” and stamp their feet.
Its cringe, get over it. The game is either bad quality or good quality, how it GOT to be that way shouldnt matter. The devs either did a good job, or they didnt.
Let me put it this way:
If you are busy critiquing how the result was achieved by what tools, instead of WHAT the result was, you are cringe.
If you critique “this looks bad, its low quality, it looks like garbage” yeah, I have no issue with that, its a valid critique. Regardless of HOW they made the bad game, a bad game is a bad game.
But if you care about what TOOLS they use, you are incredibly naive.
People need to go look up how much resources/power/water data centres for build servers use, which the industry has been using for decades. You think AI uses a lot of power and water? Get fucked dawg, that is NOTHING compared to companies running multi-hour long gambits of automated UX testing suites. That shit is where the real power draw is.
BUT the industry has been doing that for DECADES and yet no one has raised a single eyebrow at it, no one cared, no one even knew it was a thing companies did.
Suddenly companies are using AI, which uses a fraction of that water/power, and everyone is like “oh my dawg, theyre killing the planet”
Fuck off lol, if you werent complaining about it before, you come across as cringe, uninformed, naive, and dumb for suddenly caring about a 5% uptick in energy/water usage compared to what we were doing before.
So all you end up with left is the “stolen property” argument, which STILL doesnt apply if its not in the final product anyways.
And its a VERY wobbly argument to stand up and die on a hill for, anyways.
Generated code is no different than generated imagery. They were both trained off stolen content and are both in a legally grey area. Both are equally immoral.
But just go with your Everybody else is doing it argument
You can’t steal something you copied, because nothing has been taken, and the concept of owning ideas is ridiculous anyway. Not to mention morality is subjective.
Pirate everything, because everything is yours as much as it is the original creators.
Its not “everyone else is doing it” as an argument
Its reality that a massive fuck tonne of devs are using it totally unaware its AI generated
Its just a built in, enabled by default, opt out, feature in all the mainstream IDEs now and for the most popular ones, it doesnt even tell you upfront its AI
So a huge amount of devs are 100% unaware of the fact that a huge % of their code that they just tab auto-completed with was AI generated code. Everytime they hit the tab button to accept an inline suggestion, that was AI.
They just dont even know this, they use it totally unaware.
See my other comment here for further info on what I mean, so I dont have to repeat myself.
My question is if everything is going to be human made in the end why bother using at all? You won’t even get any of the much vaunted time savings at that point.
It is conceivable (though I certainly understand skepticism) that they use it for concept and placeholder art, proofs of concept and the like.
As always, the question should be whether the final product is any good.
The question should be whether the final product is worth what was sacrificed to make it. That line is different for everyone, but it’s important to keep that in mind. Plenty of companies I boycott make acceptable products but are supporting a genocide.
I don’t think generative AI use is worth it however it’s employed and regardless of the quality of the final product. If enough people agree maybe they’ll stop using it.
For instance. You can try things out without first creating them by hand. Then you pick and choose and make the final version by hand.
kazernielEvery other commenter under this seems to forget that stock assets exist and worked fine for decades without involving AI slop.
Stock assets (at least if you need more than the absolutely basics) cost quite a bit. Programmer art can work, but if you want something close to the tone of the finished product, still takes time and thus money. Slop is quick and free.
Frankly, given the fact that placeholder assets are literally meant to be utilitarian, disposable, “just good enough” work, it’s actually not a terrible use case. Placeholders are meant to be slop either way, so not much is lost by automating it, so long as it is actually removed after.
Placeholder assets are generally better if they look out of place because then you don’t forget to replace them 😅
AI art generation is trained to be just good enough to fly under the rader if not looked at too closely…
It depends on what you are using placeholder assets for. If you want to use it to gauge how a scene would look before setting out to build it, then placeholders that stand out get in the way. You would need a way of tracking all the slop, but then you could have a build tool track how much slop is still in the game to make sure you catch it all before release.
Depends on the use case. If its just to be a piece to fill the spot and nothing else, yes. That said, assets impact tone and gameplay, and if you’re trying to judge how something will feel or play, then sometimes you need something closer to the given use case. For example, if you have a survival horror game and are trying to judge the ambiance and visibility of an in-progress level, using wildly out of place assets will mess with the tone, and may result in difficulty in judging factors like the visibility of gameplay elements.
Like was said before, the same role as stock assets and programmer art.
If your placeholder doesn’t stick out like a sore thumb, it’s a bad placeholder. There is literally no workflow in which temporary assets shat by AI would be useful.
They just want to normalize AI use until people don’t care anymore. And with the waste of resources this shit represents, I just hope this never happens.
You don’t see the use in an artist viewing an approximation of the finished product in order to see what can be improved?
Do you suppose all conductors just write symphonies in their heads and never have to hear them out loud before deciding they’re done? Would it be useful to replace the tuba with a placeholder of a duck quacking, or do you think they might want it to sound like a tuba even though it’s not the final product?
Even a cheap toy synthetizer can make something close enough to a tuba sound to get an idea of what it sounds like. Need something better? people make sound fonts for that.
But maybe it’s better to use generative AI to potentially have something close to the real thing, just so you can have huge datacenters consuming absurd amounts of power and water too.
You don’t see the use in an artist viewing an approximation of the finished product
I don’t because that’s not what artists do.
Artists are not people who bring nearly finished projects over the finish line. And if your finished project does not look anything like your nearly-finished AI assets, what are you actually using them for?
You’re saying artists never look at their work and decide to change something. Ok, buddy.
Okay, well if you’re going to be like that, I’ll talk to someone else:
An artists job is to pull together research, resources, history, knowledge, opinions, their own fluency in the language of the medium they’re using, and a bit of inspiration, and turn that into something interesting, or cool, or flashy, or thought provoking.
AI generation, even for the concept phase, skips 90% of that effort.
You can’t fabricate something with AI and then re-make it by hand later because these are two halves of the same process. By the time the hands are involved, there is very little left for them to do.
On to the shit list they go.
Doesn’t really matter to me, because I was going to pirate it the same as I do any game, AAA or indie.
Green WizardOpen up paint and doodle it for Christ’s sake, these guys “forget” to go back and change it I’ve noticed, so just don’t use it, boom, problem solved.
AmosBurton_ThatGuyGonna preface this by saying I’m obviously a huge Expanse fan so my opinion is definitely biased. My username is a character from The Expanse and I consider it both my favorite TV show and book series ever. Wanted to make that clear up front.
That being said, if the game is good and they eventually replace the slop assets with proper assets, then what does it matter? As much as I like Lemmy, the hardline stances the community tends to take pisses me off at times. “Oh you’re not a full blown communist and haven’t read Marx? You’re no better than a nazi you filthy shitlib”
Or regarding “AI” (hate that they called it that, it’s basically just a smarter auto correct thats existed in smartphone keyboards for years now) anyone that doesn’t automatically and passionately hate AI or any of its uses is automatically demonized as a supporter of big tech. Don’t get me wrong, I fucking hate 90% of what “AI” does and is used for, especially how corpos are using it as an excuse to lay off real people and how dumbasses are relying on it as pure truth when it constantly hallucinates bullshit. I don’t support “AI” and I can’t wait for the bubble to burst.
There’s almost zero nuance here, it’s 90% “you’re with us or you’re against us” with no room for anything in between.
If the game is good and they replace the slop assets with real assets when it’s released next year then who fucking cares that they used AI, what matters is whether the game is good or not and whether the devs are treated and paid well. Expedition 33 used AI in earlier iterations and it all got replaced with real assets eventually but that didn’t stop Lemmy from shitting on one of the best games to come out within the last decade once that became public.
You wanna make this place a more mainstream alternative to big tech controlling everything? Get off your high horse and accept that there’s nuance to everything, it’s not just black and white. Otherwise this place will continue to scare off new users faster than it can gain them. I consider myself to be a progressive, I’m Canadian and I’ve only voted NDP since I was able to vote and I’m now 32. I also really respect AOC, Mamdani, and Sanders in the states, so I’m already close enough to the target demographic of Lemmy if you exclude the tankie trifecta (ml, hexbear, and grad) and even I get sick of the circlejerk here at times.
Judge something when you can actually have a proper opportunity to do so rather than getting preemptively pissed off because they had the audacity to use something you don’t like.
If the game comes out and still has slop in it and/or just sucks in general, then yeah, shit on it all you want, and I’ll be first in line to join the club cause I absolutely love The Expanse and I’ll be immensely disappointed if it turns out bad.
Again, in the interest of honesty and transparency, I usually prefer to just throw my opinions out there and not read or respond to replies when it’s something that I know is gonna be controversial so I won’t be replying to anyone that replies to this comment. I really hate arguing with random people on the internet so I just ignore replies for the most part.
w3dd1eIt’s my favorite book too. I’m conflicted. AI isn’t going back in the box.
At the same time, it’s kinda like the way Belters are treated, barely getting their needs met in favor of corporate profits. AI is doing the same thing to a lot of people looking for work and is built off stolen labor.
So what you’re saying is we should drop rocks on the data centers, right?
Ok, but what if I don’t want new people and like how small it is filled with like-minded individuals?
Don’t go in the internet, move to a cave and don’t bother interacting with the society. It solves both our and your issues.
Nah the block button works much easier (maybe not as well here cause it’s more a mute button, but having 10s of thousands of accounts blocked on other sites makes being online great especially when I don’t get banned for stating the fact rich people and conservatives deserve a bullet to the brain).
Dremor