applebuschWhat do y'all think about the bi-lesbian identity?
Jul (they/she)None of the labels really fit me well especially since I’m technically agender, even if I have a vagina and present femme more often. So there is no homo or hetero since I don’t fit either side and I don’t like bi because it excludes non-binary people who are no bi-gendered, like me. So, I have my internal labels which are pretty loose, and my external labels which are context specific. Pan is the best I’ve come up with as a general term, but I heavily prefer femmes and since I present femme a lot, lesbian works ok. Queer is a good one, too, since it’s nonspecific.
AdaBisexuality is inclusive of non binary folk. The name predates widespread awareness of gender experiences outside the binary, but the even back nearly 40 years ago, the bisexual manifesto was quite clear that bisexuality includes folk whose gender falls outside the binary.
That doesn’t mean you need to use the label for yourself, but it’s important to recognise that the label itself isn’t inherently exclusive
But bi means two meaning it literally refers to being attracted to two genders by definition. Sure it’s often used to refer to people who are somewhere between binary genders as well by more inclusive people, but it also often is used to exclude trans and non-binary people by more conservative people. What it definitely doesn’t include by definition of the word is people who are totally outside of the binary spectrum.
It’s like people who call transwomen “dude” or “bro”. Sure they might mean that as a gender neutral term in their heads, but it is not a gender neutral term to the majority or by common usage. Or people who use the b word. Sure in some groups of people it’s a term of endearment, but in many its meant to degrade women since the literal word means “female dog”. So, if some people use the term as an insult then it doesn’t matter that you might not be meaning it as an insult, it’s still going to feel like one. On the internet you have to be more specific with wording things and not use regional slang outside of communities specifically for those groups.
Similarly, even if you personally use bi to mean all, that’s not how some people use it, and it’s not the literal meaning of the word, so it is generally assumed by people who are outside the binary, and sometimes trans people who are often treated as non-human by conservatives, to not include them unless they know the specific person or group means it differently.
What it definitely doesn’t include by definition of the word is people who are totally outside of the binary spectrum.
It does though.
This is a quote from the bisexual manifesto, back from 1990
Bisexuality is a whole, fluid identity. Do not assume that bisexuality is binary or duogamous in nature: that we have “two” sides or that we must be involved simultaneously with both genders to be fulfilled human beings. In fact, don’t assume that there are only two genders. Do not mistake our fluidity for confusion, irresponsibility, or an inability to commit. Do not equate promiscuity, infidelity, or unsafe sexual behavior with bisexuality. Those are human traits that cross all sexual orientations. Nothing should be assumed about anyone’s sexuality, including your own.
I completely understand that you may be uncomfortable with the term yourself, and I’m not suggesting that you need to use it. But the term was inclusive of non binary people from before many people using the internet today were even born. You can’t assume that someone using the term is exclusive of non binary folk.
I can genuinely say that I’ve never met a bisexual person who is explicitly only interested in men and women. I mean, I’ve ran across them online, but the people that I’ve actually met and spoken to in person? Not a single one has used the label in an exclusionary way.
And like any term with problematic, out of date origins, there is power in reclaiming it.
All of which is to say, you can’t tell people that an identity they’ve been using in an inclusive way for literally decades is actually exclusive just because you personally aren’t comfortable with it.
For what it’s worth, I feel similar about the term transsexual. It’s a term that in modern usage, has a good chance of meaning that the person labelling themselves that way is a transmedicalist, with exclusionary beliefs about who is and isn’t transgender. I don’t label myself transsexual because of that discomfort with the word. But I also know people who came out as trans decades before I did, who use the label because that was the language at the time they came out. They’re not automatically transmeds themselves, and I don’t get to tell them that they need to redefine their identity for my comfort.
Unfortunately, I have met many people who identify as bi, but are exclusive of trans people. As gay and lesbian people have become more accepted, but trans people have not, many bi people who identify as TERF, for example, exclude trans people from their bisexuality.
J.K. Rowling is the most famous close to an example, but definitely one of the reasons it’s acceptable. Although she says she turned out to not be, she did once identify as bi while exploring her sexuality, but of course trans people excluded.
I’ve experienced my fair share of people saying they’re bi, but not being interested in me or people like me who don’t conform, so I’m speaking from experience. The idealists who documented the bi label may not have meant it to be used that way many years ago, but again, the literal meaning is that, and since it is often used that way, that’s how I interpret it.
I think the problem here is you’re letting transphobes corrupt a word that never meant to exclude trans people, and actual bi and trans people use to describe their sexuality, me included. I’m trans, and I have sex with trans people. My most recent ex is nonbinary. All words are made up and they mean what we decide they mean. If you let some bi transphobes sully a word they’ve tried to corrupt with hate you let them win. You wouldn’t write off feminism as anti-trans because TERFs exist. You wouldn’t write off lesbians as racist because racist lesbians exist. You wouldn’t write of pan people as rapists because pansexual rapists exist. Why the fuck do you want to let bi transphobes claim our word?
Reclaiming a word is a great goal, but it starts in targeted local communities and then having those communities reach out to reclaim it in larger ones and so on. And it’s much more difficult when both the intricacies of the literal meaning dont support the one you want and it’s in active use to mean something different by people who don’t believe they are using it in a bigoted way. It’s much easier when it’s very explicit that people are using the word as an attack like gay, bitch, the n word, etc., all of witch are in various stages of being reclaimed.
But if it’s about communication and in a larger community like the internet or even a city of people, and there are more specific words that explicitly give those meanings rather than intricate socially defined implications, then it’s better to use those words outside of the community you’re reclaiming the word in.
In this case, if a cis-woman I’m interested in says they are bi, I will assume they are not interested in me vs if they say pan- or omni-sexual or use a word that has no explicit intricacies associated with it’s literal meaning like queer. And asking clarifying questions might out me in a potentially life-threatening way. If a trans-woman I’m interested in says bi, I’m likely to be more inquisitive to figure out what they mean just like if they said queer. But again, that’s a different community of people. Very few trans people are going to be bigoted against other trans people. But lots of cis people are bigoted in the current state of the world.
So feel free to try to reclaim it. I think that’s a noble goal. I’m just saying that you may be misinterpreted in a larger community like on the internet or even localized dating sites.
You’re just wrong though. Bi doesn’t mean trans exclusive. You are personally pushing for that definition through your actions and words. You are actively giving that word away to transphobes. Ultimately you’re free to believe whatever you want to believe, but you’re still just factually incorrect.
I don’t have the power to change what bigots are using it for. So I have to assume that people who use the term are using it in that way for my own safety. Outing myself in person to the wrong person in this day and age can get me murdered. And I don’t have the energy to ask every person on the internet to clarify. I don’t care what people use to describe themselves internally or within their communities. I am talking about the world in its current state. If people don’t clarify their intention, then I have to assume the worst common meaning for safety.
What I’d like to know is if there’s a term for those who prefer non-binary folks over binary folks? Like Jul, I’m agender but present femme (because it’s easier with my body type. I just don’t care enough to perform gender in any particular way.) I’m most attracted not to cis-men or cis-women, but to those of ambiguous gender presentation. Butch women, femmeboys, people that can’t be squared into any particular box - they catch my attention in a way that “traditionally attractive” masculine men and feminine women never have. Trans individuals (sometimes even before they come out) also catch my eye more than cis individuals. I’ve had two boyfriends who transitioned to become girlfriends during the times we dated. I use the label “pansexual” instead of “bisexual” because I feel that it better captures these groups, but it fails when the part of the gender spectrum that I’m most drawn to is outside of the line.
I ask in part because you seem very knowledgeable about this, but also because other commenters might know new terms that I am unfamiliar with. Surely I’m not alone in this regard. Is queer-sexual a thing? As well, is there a term for those of us who are attracted to trans individuals, but not as a fetish? I would love to have a way to express that I’m interested in dating them, not because I’m looking to live out some “forbidden fantasy”, but because they’re part of the non-cis group that I’m generally attracted to. Sometimes I worry about putting that I’m attracted to trans people in a dating profile because I know there are oceans of people who see trans individuals as sex objects, and the last thing I want to do is make them feel like all I care about is their genitals. After all, they’ve gone on inner journeys to discover themselves, and despite society telling them who they should be, they stand strong on who they know they are. And to me, that is hot, no matter what equipment they have.