Melissa Fehr
Alex McLeanI've been thinking a lot about what a friend pointed out - that mixed gendered spaces often quickly become male-exclusive because men tend to have much higher tolerance for arsehole behaviour than women, so it only takes one dodgy person to destroy a community as all the women basically leave. Once such a community has heavy male bias it can hardly recover, and its lack of representation means it can hardly succeed in any social, cultural or technical aims. Rings true for the extraordinarily bad gender balance in free/open source software in the context of the Stallman report.
Lone Koefoed Hansen@yaxu this is a really good point! I’ve never thought about that particular perspective before but it seems to true once I think about it.
Alex@rtnVFRmedia Suffolk UK@Koefoed @yaxu this happens a lot in alternative music-based subcultures like the rave scene - and when there is partydrugs and alcohol involved the behaviour of some men even leads to violence and bloodshed - so if the subculture is already in a legal grey area this unsurprisingly attracts clampdowns from law enforcement and licensing authorities..
Mittzy@yaxu Indeed... sometimes it feels as though once one man exhibits such behaviour it subconsciously becomes a competition among all the others to supercede them
Michael Bacon
Hakan Bayındır@yaxu I'll take this thesis one step further and remove gender from the equation. People who tolerate bad behavior will stay and don't tolerate will leave regardless of gender.
However, as long being a bully and pushing people around is expected or supported for males (since we think it's what makes a man a proper man), these spaces will be dominated by males. Pushy, aggressive males.
...and this kills all collaboration and good things which come out of it.
@bayindirh Yes agreed!
Gary 
@yaxu that's a really interesting way of putting it that I've not come across before, “men tend to have much higher tolerance for arsehole behaviour than women”
It makes a lot of sense, and I can see it acted out regularly (although never on the scale of RMS, thankfully) 🤔
@WiteWulf Yes it's a subtle shift of thinking but super useful I think. Tolerance separating people rather than bringing them together.
Threadbane@yaxu
It reminds me of those who excuse police murders and beatings as the result of "a few bad apples", which totally distorts the maxim, "One bad apple spoils the barrel."
It reminds me of those who excuse police murders and beatings as the result of "a few bad apples", which totally distorts the maxim, "One bad apple spoils the barrel."
@Threadbane yes when the barrel is perfectly able to throw out the 'bad apple', it's the barrels fault
Jay@yaxu I don’t think it’s that men have a higher tolerance for assholes, it’s that men have a higher tolerance for assholery that is male-coded.
The gossipy asshole who pushes people out by turning the group’s consensus is tolerated much less than the “genius” asshole who is happy to take credit for things others have done, while pushing people out and ensuring that other genius-assholes don’t arise to challenge them.
Men tolerate the “great man” myth; women know the hidden work.
Riley S. Faelan@WhiteCatTamer Welctually, teaching boys to tolerate arseholes is a common facet of toxic masculinity in the Western cultures.
Confucius-influenced Far Eastern cultures also try to do it, but in some cases, leave certain ... let's call them, escape hatches.
Ben AvelingI’ll also add that bullies tend to target disproportionately women and minorities. @yaxu @WhiteCatTamer
Patrick GillamYour friend’s observation about men is a variation on Gresham’s Law, which says bad money drives out good. Turns out Gresham’s Law applies to everything. Bad roommates drive out good roommates, for example.
Has anyone coined a law for the tendency for social systems to degenerate to their lowest common denominator? Other than the second law of thermodynamics, I mean.
masukomi@yaxu also men are used to just getting their way by being the loudest and ignoring the needs or interests of the women near them. Even when they're not "dodgy" or intentionally being a dick, it's the default for our society.
@masukomi Absolutely, I have recent extreme experience of this in a senior academic context, everyone nice enough but by the end the men were basically taking turns point scoring. When it got called out things got _very_ defensive and then they carried on the same way (well this bit was 'dodgy'). Anecdotally though this seems to be getting better with younger generations?
@yaxu re younger gen. Who can say. left to their own devices they seem to be skewing more open minded and accepting, meanwhile, half of them are growing up in states that are becoming increasingly fascist, homophobic and disregarding of the idea that women should have any say over their lives or bodies .
people aren’t bigoted by default but if you grow up in an environment where that bigotry is “normal“ you don’t know that you’re being a bigot and the cycle continues
@masukomi Yes definitely a mixed picture here in the UK as well
Darwin WoodkaI am getting very tired of the male tolerance for assholeness. Guys seriously need to start calling the shit out. Then we wouldn't end up with the Trumps and Musks of the world.
Women don't tolerate it because to us it's dangerous. Let a guy be an asshole to us and it might end up fatal. Men need to stop letting it go too.
@yaxu And the only way it gets better is if men overcome our innate desire for comity and tell the toxic ones to STFU, and throw them out if they don't.
And there is so much socialization telling us not to do that . . .
Syntəl8@yaxu yes, I've seen and fought exactly this on a much smaller scale. I have to say it's an uphill battle. I will always support women+ only events/spaces for this reason.
Another thing we've been painfully aware of is that men have more 'I deserve to be here' on average. Making everyone feel included and cherished is another challenge.
Anyone who has resources on this please share with a mention 🩷
Another thing we've been painfully aware of is that men have more 'I deserve to be here' on average. Making everyone feel included and cherished is another challenge.
Anyone who has resources on this please share with a mention 🩷
⁂ Fish Id Wardrobe@yaxu This is an excellent point, but I'd argue it's worse than that. It's not, ahem, all men that have a higher tolerance for arsehole behaviour. It's a certain sort of man.
@yaxu I've just read a toot about a paper that says mice fighting other mice run to females to defuse the situation. I know there's no *direct* connection to the top of this thread, but I imagine male-only mouse spaces would have a lot of fighting because of it…
Deviant Ollam@yaxu one more reason that I'm a fan of a lot of spaces and parties being ABCD ☺️👍
Christina GrossackI don't think I've seen this abbreviation before, and trying to search for it only gives themed alphabet songs, haha. Do you mind clarifying?
@hallasurvivor @yaxu "anyone but cis dudes"
It cuts down on the problems in a given space SO much 😉👍
Deviant Ollam (@[email protected])
@[email protected] @[email protected] "anyone but cis dudes" It cuts down on the problems in a given space SO much 😉👍
Asbestos@yaxu
A tolerance paradox.
A tolerance paradox.
kyscg@yaxu this reminds me of a Paul Graham line from one of his essays (I think the one on Jessica Livingston)
"There's a sort of Gresham's Law of conversations. If a conversation reaches a certain level of incivility, the more thoughtful people start to leave."
cyanide dansen
Glenjamin