Track_Shovel5d ago

Supply and demand

https://slrpnk.net/post/35672427

Show threadchicken5d ago

Here’s the article this is responding to if anyone wants to read it. Here’s the study it’s reporting on.

I’d say the tweet is at least a little bit disingenuous because the article is not arguing against the adoption of solar power, rather the focus is on what the challenges to California’s solar goals are and what possible solutions might be. The tone is “economic constraints might slow down solar, how can that be addressed?” This is all from 2021, and it looks like since then the slowdown in solar capacity increase it cites as a concern has not materialized, still lots of consistent growth since then. I haven’t read enough to know whether this is because the study was wrong somehow, or that it’s premise that solar installation costs might not continue to drop just didn’t pan out, or that the increased subsidies it suggested came through, but it’s an interesting topic.

The lurking threat to solar power’s growth

Plummeting sunny day solar prices are undermining the economic case to build more solar farms – and putting climate goals at risk.

MIT Technology Review
Show threadNocturnalMorning
It’s colosally stupid to tie solar power generation to It’s economic value. We are quickly heading to a future with climate extremes without doing something different.
Mar 23 at 11:39pmWeb
Show threadchicken5d ago
It’s not stupid to acknowledge that individuals and businesses make decisions on the basis of money. That isn’t the same thing as giving climate concerns a lower relative priority. You can have climate as your highest priority, and still pursue that priority much more effectively by considering financial incentives and their effects, and to me that is what this article and connected study seem to be doing.
Show threadNocturnalMorning5d ago
Nothing matters if the planet is nearly uninhabitable.
Show threadchicken5d ago
I’m not sure what your point is
Show threadNocturnalMorning5d ago
Im saying its insane to worry about the economy when we are facing down making parts of the earth uninhabitable.
Show threadchicken5d ago
I see, but I’m saying that nobody is worrying about the economy here except as a means to make sure more solar power is deployed, and I don’t see how there could be an objection to that.
Show threadRamenJunkie5d ago

Becsuse we aren’t deploying it enough, because we are entertaining a return to coal or and fighting wars over oil still.

When we should be converting to solar and wind, reguardless of cost or return on investment.

Show threadchicken5d ago

we aren’t deploying it enough

When we should be converting to solar and wind, reguardless of cost or return on investment.

I am pretty sure the article is in full agreement with you on these things and I think you are misunderstanding what it says.

Show threadRamenJunkie5d ago
When the last tree has fallen and the rivers are poisoned, you cannot eat money.
Show threadTinidril5d ago

You are missing the point. Why have you, RamenJunkie not personally set up enough solar panels to provide everyone with all the energy they need? You can’t afford it? Well, surely there must be a bank somewhere that would loan you the money. All that electricity would be really valuable. Oh, the bank doesn’t think the economics make sense.

One way or another the economic problems need to be addressed and, in order to do that, they must first be acknowledged and understood. That’s what the article was trying to do. You can’t just sweep it under the rug and figure some sucker will pay for it for the rest of us.

Show threadRamenJunkie4d ago
If the provate sector can’t handle itnthen the government should do it, preferably with bull shit war machine funds, and provide it to the populace.
Show threadTinidril4d ago

And you don’t think some kind of economic analysis is necessary before deciding if the private sector can “handle it” or exactly how the government can beat interveine?

You’re not exactly wrong about anything, but understanding exactly how the economics break down is important, regardless of how we break down responsibility between the public and private sectors.

Of course this is all academic when the country elects Republicans and the Democrats keep nominating neoliberals. At least with a private marketplace solution it wouldn’t get shredded the moment Republicans win power.

Show threadRamenJunkie4d ago
I mean, we have had like a decade or more now to prove out that the private sector can’t handle converting society to solar.
Show threadTinidril4d ago

It’s not a binary question though. There is nothing wrong with the government interceding in a dysfunctional market, but the first step should be understanding what broke down and why.

Should the government intervene on the production side or the consumption side? Do we need more windmills and nuclear to compensate for Solar’s instability, or just more storage?

Spain did an incredible job converting over to renewals. Then they had an extended outage because they hadn’t properly considered reactive power difference between generators and solar/wind generation. Then, of course, the fossil fuel industry turned that into propaganda. Studies matter.

Show threadboonhet5d ago

Well there is one problem with negative electricity prices though. It’s that you’re gonna have to pay to produce electricity, charge batteries you might not have, or disconnect from the grid. I suspect fancy new inverters allow doing the latter automatically, but people with older setups will have to either do it manually by the hour when prices go negative, or upgrade their setup.

Good news is that negative electricity prices also apply to fossil fuels so there’s incentive to reduce production there too.

Show threadRamenJunkie5d ago

Here is an idea.

What if we do something becsuse its a net food, and who cares if there is a positive or negative price because tying everything ever to monitary value is cancer on society.

Show threadDeme5d ago
The reason the price goes negative is that there’s too much electricity being produced and not enough being used. The grid isn’t a magical electricity sink. Things will break if the frequency raises too much due to overvoltage. I hate money and capitalism as much as the next guy here, but this dynamic is based on material realities, not market scheming.
Show threadboonhet4d ago

Okay but you’re still free to do that. Put up solar panels and PAY for the privilege of producing electricity when there’s not enough demand.

If you do it on a large enough scale, you can probably bankrupt some coal plants or something.

Show threadpsud9h ago

The good thing about the old systems that are too dumb to take curtailment orders is they are small

Inverters made in the last few years can respond to curtailment orders or could after a software update