So, here goes a thread I've been meaning to do for a while on age verification in the context of "we've gotta restrict access to porn!"

๐Ÿงต 1/N

I'm going to take it as a given that we all agree that ID-gating the internet is harmful to society at large, to the rights of free expression & association, anomymous speech, privacy, etc.

That's not the topic I want to address.

2/N

Rather, I want to address the objection of "yes, ID-gating is harmful, but so is exposing kids to the Bad Stuff on the internet, so we have to do something about it, right?"

Because this seems to be what a number of people who see themselves as reasonable actually believe, or purport to believe.

3/N

First, if you're going to take this position, you have to be clear about what actual "threat" you're trying to mitigate.

Is it kids accidentally stumbling across porn and being traumatized, or just given unrealistic and harmful perspectives on what sex is, by it? ๐Ÿ™„ Or it is kids seeking it out when you don't want them to?

Because these are vastly different problems, and as soon as you start to break it down to considering them separately, the idea of ID-gating as a solution starts to sound rather sus.

4/N

In particular, if the problem you want to solve is "oh noes they're gonna accidentally stumble across pr0n!!" then all you need is confirmation of intent. A click-through that you understand what's on the site you're about to visit and that it's appropriate for you. Same thing reputable sites have always done.

And if the problem is that you're trying to stop a kid who's trying to find porn, all you're going to do is teach them about circumvention methods.

5/N

But here's where I want to challenge the assumptions at a deeper level:

Yes, most porn is likely harmful for kids to see. Especially in the context of not already having a comprehensive sex ed background, way beyond the level that's politically feasible to offer. It often ignores consent, normalizes entitlement to women's attention and bodies, portrays completely backwards gender power dynamics, normalizes gendered (and often also racialized) violence as part of sex, etc.

But guess what?

So does every fucking piece of incel-pop played on the radio while you're driving your kids to school, as background when you take them shopping, etc. etc. etc.

6/N

Do we ban playing incel-pop* in earshot of kids?

No. This is partly because of our societies' values about censorship, but perhaps more fundamentally, it's because the people who want to impose censorship DON'T ACTUALLY DEEM THESE HARMS TO BE HARMS. They love teaching kids their deplorable values.

Banning or ID-gating porn isn't about stopping any harms. It's a power play.

(*) I define "incel-pop" as any pop music with themes like "you should dump your bf and be with me because I'm a nice guy", "nobody else would treat you as good as I do", etc.

7/N

@dalias oh like that Shaun Mendes song! I don't know the name but the lyrics creep me out. As if the writer thinks he's a good guy for trying to undermine someone's relationship out of selfishness. If you think the person is in an abusive relationship, sure that's something to address. But dude, ๐Ÿ‘ that ๐Ÿ‘ is ๐Ÿ‘ not ๐Ÿ‘ about ๐Ÿ‘ you ๐Ÿ‘.

@dalias

Can we throw songs like Taylor Swift's 2008-era ouvre onto the 'incel-pop' definition? Because that stuff is creepy. Unrequited yearning is a very human thing, but the possessiveness I hear in those songs makes me think that if the girl ever does hook up with the subject of the lyrics, there's going to be a headline in the local papers a few months down the line.

Anyway, yeah. When someone says that censorship exists 'for the good of the children', I have to wonder whose children, how it'll help them, and what harms the censorship will cause which are greater than the harms already out there. Also, I'll want to know why that person is so intent on everyone being watched and tracked, because that's pretty damn creepy.

@theogrin @dalias I'll take You belong with me, stalkerish as it is, over https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_Dick_Man any day of the week.

When the latter song came out, I was 19, with a wholesome, mushy bleeding heart, and desperately, existentially looking for proof that a woman could care. That song did not help.

Short Dick Man - Wikipedia