PallasRiot3d ago
Rules lite TTRPG systems are a scourge on the hobby and a fundamental misunderstanding of what games are. Trying to "streamline" games is largely a pathological drive from capitalist pressures, we can surely make the most efficient rules lite system ever by simply having everyone gather on a Friday, declare themselves heroic, and have a pizza. The point of a game isn't strictly the outcome, it's the process as well. It's primarily the process even!
Show threadPallasRiot3d ago

This doesn't mean that crunchy automatically means better, but the rules-facilitated process of TTRPGs is inherent to the form, it's a requirement, and the crunch is necessary for a reason. Robust rules build shared physics and give contour to the game's reality, they create opportunities for the unexpected and unlikely which requires enough inputs for people to *have expectations*, it provides opportunities for complex meta-storytelling where the rules themselves inform how the world is interacted with, what is trustworthy, etc.

Rules lite systems inevitably eat away at these crucial aspects of tabletop gaming. Just play Munchkin, there's literally nothing wrong with that!

Show threadFoolishOwl3d ago

@PallasRiot I disagree. I find that a well designed rules light system is more comprehensible, so the rules are more likely to be understood and followed. I also favor a lot of improvisation. It's a different style of play.

As for capitalism, I think they want to sell stuff without regard to whether people use it.

Show threadPallasRiot3d ago

@foolishowl There are very nearly zero ttrpg systems that are too complicated for someone to learn if they're interested in the hobby.

Rules lite systems are fast to produce, require far less play testing, fewer contributors, etc, they're in vogue because they're cheap and don't require much labor to pump out. Many of the studios that used to employ a bunch of designers have long since fired their teams down to the bare bones and "streamlined" their games because pumping out cheap material with marketing tie-ins is more profitable, and small operations favor rules lite systems because they don't have the capital. It's the Amazon-ification of the ttrpg market.

Show threadFoolishOwl3d ago

@PallasRiot People will learn complex TTRPG systems if they want to learn complex TTRPG systems. That's not everyone.

Nearly all of the marketing tie-ins I see are specifically for D&D 5E, or Warhammer 40K, or a handful of other games from major game publishers. I've gotten a few buttons and a tee-shirt from crowdfunded games, but I don't think that amounts to much.

Most of the rules light systems I know of are sold for a few dollars online by indie designers. There are definitely some corporations making money off being intermediaries, though.

Show threadPallasRiot3d ago
@foolishowl That's part of my point: the rules-lite-ification of games has hollowed out studios and reduced the labor power of designers, pushing indie designers to focus on cheap, easy to publish rules-lite borderline slop. The studios that once would have supported expensive dev teams realized they could fire most of their workers, and the effect on the market is a push towards cheaper, lower quality output as fast as possible. The market no longer supports multi-year games testing with a bunch of contributors, which is what robust games thrive on.
Show threadrefraction 3d ago
@PallasRiot @foolishowl okay all of that can be true without requiring games with complex rule sets to be superior and rules-lite games to be bad. that's just your preference. I think generally most games aren't that good, regardless of how many rules they have. it's just that it's easier to produce lots of mediocre games fast if they aren't heavy on rules, but well designed and thought out rules-lite games totally exist.
Show threadPallasRiot3d ago
@elexia @foolishowl My second post there is saying that more crunch doesn't mean better. Adding arbitrary complexity doesn't make a game better, but games-as-process requires systems more robust than improv with a few coin flips. The prevalence of Powered by the Apocalypse clones and similar rules light game has lead to worse games on the whole, in part because they're not providing sufficiently robust mechanics to actually have real game process to speak of.
Show thread2something3d ago
@PallasRiot @elexia @foolishowl

I've noticed a trend with people who say PbA is "rules lite."

The people who primarily play D&D and its clones tend to ignore a lot of D&D's rules for things outside of combat. In 3rd-5th edition, a common example is the "diplomacy" or "pursuasion" skill. Almost no one runs it by the book, and many groups have their own house rules without realizing it.

So people who play mostly D&D see the rules for a Powered by Apocalypse game and assume, possibly unconsciously, that they can ignore all the rules that aren't about combat.

So my hypothesis is that the majority (though not all) of people who believe PbA is "rules lite" are people who primarily play D&D and D&D-clones and are paying most attention to the combat rules.

I don't think PbA is rules lite: the core rulebook for Apocalypse World is 300 pages, and the core rulebook for Dungeon World is 400 pages. People called my chess variant too complicated, and the rules fit in 11 pages!
Show threadPallasRiot
@2something @foolishowl @elexia I've played everything from D&D 2nd through 5th to Exalted to Ars Magica to nearly single page indie games to old d30 adventures and all sorts of other stuff.
Mar 22 at 2:00amWeb