Rules lite TTRPG systems are a scourge on the hobby and a fundamental misunderstanding of what games are. Trying to "streamline" games is largely a pathological drive from capitalist pressures, we can surely make the most efficient rules lite system ever by simply having everyone gather on a Friday, declare themselves heroic, and have a pizza. The point of a game isn't strictly the outcome, it's the process as well. It's primarily the process even!

This doesn't mean that crunchy automatically means better, but the rules-facilitated process of TTRPGs is inherent to the form, it's a requirement, and the crunch is necessary for a reason. Robust rules build shared physics and give contour to the game's reality, they create opportunities for the unexpected and unlikely which requires enough inputs for people to *have expectations*, it provides opportunities for complex meta-storytelling where the rules themselves inform how the world is interacted with, what is trustworthy, etc.

Rules lite systems inevitably eat away at these crucial aspects of tabletop gaming. Just play Munchkin, there's literally nothing wrong with that!

@PallasRiot I disagree. I find that a well designed rules light system is more comprehensible, so the rules are more likely to be understood and followed. I also favor a lot of improvisation. It's a different style of play.

As for capitalism, I think they want to sell stuff without regard to whether people use it.

@foolishowl There are very nearly zero ttrpg systems that are too complicated for someone to learn if they're interested in the hobby.

Rules lite systems are fast to produce, require far less play testing, fewer contributors, etc, they're in vogue because they're cheap and don't require much labor to pump out. Many of the studios that used to employ a bunch of designers have long since fired their teams down to the bare bones and "streamlined" their games because pumping out cheap material with marketing tie-ins is more profitable, and small operations favor rules lite systems because they don't have the capital. It's the Amazon-ification of the ttrpg market.

No true Scotsman would find Pathfinder too complicated to learn!

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@cy @foolishowl I think once you're saying that Pathfinder is too complicated you're probably being like deeply condescending to hypothetical TTRPG players. I don't think this is a No True Scotsman as I'm not making some non-substantive purity point here. As an example, it's not a No True Scotsman fallacy to say that street racing hobbyists doesn't include people who don't street race. I'm not saying that people who don't learn Pathfinder aren't TTRPG hobbyists, I'm saying that I don't think games with robust rules are actually that inaccessible.
For the record I don't think Pathfinder is too hard to learn, even though it's infamous for its... rather thick and expensive rulebooks. I can definitely understand people who might not be particularly interested in doing so.

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