✧✦Catherine✦✧anyway if you want a python dependency manager not owned by openai, try pdm
bimbo savant (cow arc)@whitequark oh no, what did i miss :/
@whitequark oh fucking hell
fyrfaras@imbl @whitequark Astral, the start-up behind uv and other Python tools, got aquired by OpenAI today. Now I'm kinda glad that I didn't invest too much time learning about uv ...
@fyrfaras @whitequark i just saw >:/
yay! im so excited to "sloppercharge my productivity" or whatever!!!
although i do love the irony that astral's repos use claude. really shows how full of shit they are when their announcement is sucking up to openai's codex but they're using a competitor's slop machine. definitely not just showing a complete lack of values lol
Elizabeth 
@imbl @fyrfaras @whitequark not a huge surprise sadly, anyone who’s used Python has seen this coming ever since the big data then the LLM researchers got interested in Python.
@whitequark @Elizafox @fyrfaras mmmmmm type-safe slop
ive used mypy enough to know that this is going to fail hilariously the first time it encounters wrong or poorly-typed interfaces >:3c
@whitequark @Elizafox @fyrfaras fully agree. mypy sucks but its what i learned and its got all the plugins, plus i never got pyright working
i was actually planning on switching to ty for my next project 
@whitequark @imbl @Elizafox I sea, could you please elaborate why mypy is a net negative for programming? ^_^
@whitequark @fyrfaras @imbl I like mypy but I get some people prefer Python to be properly dynamically typed (that’s fine too).
@Elizafox @whitequark @imbl Alrighty, thank you for explaining it to me. ^^ Also I just read a toot thread, below, by @xgranade that mypy doesn't use “mathematical type checking” but rather “linting heuristics” which could lead to this bad reputation you've mentioned earlier I think.
Cassandra is only carbon now (@[email protected])
As I mentioned earlier, it's a bit more difficult to have good exit strategies with ruff, given that the specs around linting are much more loose. It's even harder to have a good exit strategy for ty, even though there's good specs, because there's not a great type checker to use instead¹. ___ ¹As has been pointed out to me, mypy is, for all its strengths and weaknesses, not a type checker. It doesn't follow formal mathematical type checking rules, it follows linting heuristics.
Cassandra is only carbon now@fyrfaras @Elizafox @whitequark @imbl Like, I'm not trying to be petty or sarcastic about it. Rather, it's that I think some of my earlier (and admittedly a bit toxic) hate of mypy came from deeply misunderstanding what mypy is and is trying to do. I would have expected from docs and the description, that mypy accepts well-typed programs and rejects programs that violate typing rules — but that's not it. It rejects well-typed programs that are likely incorrect, which is what a linter does.
@fyrfaras @Elizafox @whitequark @imbl In particular, I cannot predict the behavior of mypy given knowledge of Python's type system alone. I have to know about what is and is not likely a logic error in Python.
Which is fine if you want a somewhat more rigorous linter that has the benefit of being developed under the auspices of the PSF itself. But it's not what I want or would want out of a type checker.
@whitequark @fyrfaras @Elizafox @imbl Agree, absolutely.
I made the mistake of thinking of it as one for a long time, but I have been disavowed of that notion.
@xgranade @fyrfaras @Elizafox @imbl however the problem is that the mypy website has this misinformation on the landing page
@whitequark @fyrfaras @Elizafox @imbl Ooof, yeah. Were I in the mood to start useless fights, I'd be tempted to PR a change to that page, but it'd just get people hurt for no reason.
I mean, it just isn't a type checker. That's not what it does.
Alyssa Coghlan@xgranade @whitequark Would "type aware logic checker" be a more accurate description of what it does?
@xgranade @whitequark @fyrfaras @Elizafox i really love this thread because subconsciously i'd categorized mypy as a linter a loooong time ago but consciously i've always treated it as a type checker. it makes so much more sense as a linter though, i feel like a puzzle piece just clicked into place haha
@imbl @xgranade @fyrfaras @Elizafox fittingly, i aggressively avoid linters as an approach to making software because i think they mostly create performative busywork
(i use the software tools that call themselves linters, sometimes, configured in a very careful way that mostly avoids this problem. my list of ruff rules is like 300 lines long and it is strictly opt-in, for example)
@whitequark @xgranade @fyrfaras @Elizafox i should really start doing that, most of my fun projects die when i have to fix linter warnings
JSMuellerRoemer
alarmed feet operative: kimothy siddon
xyhhx 
@kim @whitequark can't have shit
William D. Jones@whitequark Guess I'm going back to flake8 and trying black as well.
I wish the flake8 maintainer was... more receptive to ruff's existence*. But I feel like being bought by OpenAI is worse than having a negative reaction to losing market share.
* Going by what you told me, I haven't seen the behavior myself.
@cr1901 I have no idea what you're referring to
@whitequark Huh? You said the flake8 maintainer reacted negatively to ruff as it gained market share. I swear I saw you talk about this... maybe not to me directly. It was a few months ago...
meek cynicsanyway if you want a python dependency manager not owned by openai, try guix
@cnx do you still get kicked from irc by a neckbeard for telling someone how to make their computer do the thing they want it to do?
jaseg@whitequark thank you for that suggestion, I actually needed that. I just started using uv a few months ago after I heard people say good things about it and I’m just really annoyed it’s getting fucked up by capitalism now.