Mastodawn

Drey Mar 17

@wood5y - I like this word: Kakistocracyhis is what Orange Trump is leading to. A Disgusting human.

Fardels Bear Mar 17

@wood5y

Probably because the US was the first modern democracy, one that invented itself from first principles. They thought they'd got it right but in fact it was badly flawed, and more modern democracies have greatly improved the idea. There's an implicit cultural arrogance about being the first that makes Americans ignore the dangers. I remember the sense of triumph when Obama won in 2008, as if after the Civil Rights acts and a Black president, the US couldn't regress to the bad old days.

Steve Woods Mar 17

@riggbeck Excellent point well made.

The Electoral College is a slavery era anachronism. What's it even doing in the modern USA?

Sigh, @riggbeck. The United States was designed to be NOT a democracy.

Read the Federalist Papers. The lack of democracy is not a bug. It's a carefully-designed core feature.

And @wood5y, the lack of democracy is not some sort of recent flaw. It is undemocratic ab initio.

A significant number of states ran overt apartheid until the 1960s. Now, the #WarOnDrugs pursues the same goals.

A claim that the #USA has ever been a democracy relies on igmoring apartheid, which is a racist stance.

Fardels Bear Mar 17

@2legged @wood5y

You must be thinking of 'democracy' in absolute, idealistic terms. All institutions are created within certain existing power structures. The US designed as much of a democracy as it could allow itself. Hence the improved models in other countries.

I'm more interested in what we can do now.

@riggbeck are you serious?

Do you you really think that absence of #apartheid is some sort of idealistic adornment, rather than a core attribute of #democracy? Really?

Only in a country founded on racist violence would anyone try to deny that apartheid is a disqualifying feature of democracy.

The Federalist Papers are very clear that the drafters of the constitution saw democracy as a vice to be prevented. Why do you not believe them?

@wood5y

@riggbeck and if you are "more interested in what we can do now", then the most important first step is to be honest about where you are now.

You have a system carefully designed to be not a democracy, and which in every era has entrenched anti-demicratic power. A system which throughout its history has always enforced systematic doublespeak, and venerated violence.

If you want something better, start by confronting that reality rather than perpetuating falsehoods.

I know exactly where we are now, as a citizen of both the UK and the US. In mortal danger. You seem to be stuck rehashing a word so that its past definition meets your standards of ideological purity. The important thing is what it stands for now.

@riggbeck You seem v dismissive of history, almost contemptuous. That stance rarely ends well.

The 18th-century definition is what impelled the drafters of the constitution to design a framework which aimed to permit slavery and prevent majority rule. They succeeded on both counts.

The contemporary definitions of democracy require that any effort to build better involve explicitly trying to avoid the errors of the past, such as imperialism.

Democracy or empire. Choose only one.

@wood5y

Dave Freedman Mar 18

@riggbeck @2legged @wood5y
Which other countries have "improved models"?

@Freedman @2legged @wood5y

Those with PR systems, minimum restrictions on voter eligibity, expanded methods of voting and so on. The Scandinavian and European models are pretty good in general. Almost any are better than the US system. I also like how Australia makes it a legal requirement to vote.

Dave Freedman Mar 18

@riggbeck @2legged @wood5y
You named one country. Any others?

@Freedman @2legged @wood5y

I named a collection of countries and a number of things that improve democracy. Is there a point you wish to make?

Dave Freedman Mar 18

@riggbeck @2legged @wood5y
all Scandinavian countries?

@Freedman @2legged @wood5y

There you go. Fill your boots. But take any further questions up with the World Population Review.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/democracy-countries

Democracy Countries 2026

Discover population, economy, health, and more with the most comprehensive global statistics at your fingertips.

World Population Review

@riggbeck A list with no visible criteria isn't a great help.

@Freedman @wood5y

@riggbeck Coercing people to vote, esp without a none-of-the-above option, is strongly anti-democratic.

@Freedman @wood5y

@2legged @Freedman @wood5y

Oh no it isn't. I can play this ping pong forever.

@riggbeck If you had some substantive argument in support of the bizarre claim that coerced voting is democratic, then the debate could be interestihg.

But "oh no it isn't" is just #pantomime speech.

@Freedman @wood5y

@2legged @Freedman @wood5y

I will just have to try to live with your displeasure.

@riggbeck Don't worry. Your choice to conduct yourself like a child in a pantomime invokes pity, not displeasure.

Oligarchy is aiming for no regulations, no corporate accountability, lawlessness anarchy with scams-r-us up the kazoo.
Dystopian USA where no one, not even men can vote.
So get off our asses and take pitchforks to DC! Stick it to the oligarchy

@CAWguy has moved Mar 17

@wood5y Top marks for efficiency though:
”For Orbán in Hungary, it took about four years, for Vucic in Serbia, it took eight years, and for Erdogan in Turkey and Modi in India, it took about 10 years to accomplish the suppression of democratic institutions that Trump has achieved in only one year," Lindberg says.

Woozle Hypertwin Mar 18

@CAWguy @wood5y

Don't give TFG too much credit; he provided the charisma (...apparently? I never found him appealing) but The Heritage Foundation provided the game-plan (P2025).

@CAWguy has moved Mar 18

@woozle I definitely had the Heritage Foundation in mind as well. Trump is merely their hood ornament.