Human Brain EnthusiastWhat’s in it for people who work for the big tech companies who enable one morally bankrupt thing after another for decades on end just to make the billionaire owners richer?
Is that truly fulfilling work?
I get “job security” or whatever (which you don’t actually have by the way), but working for these companies for years?
Something is wrong with you.
Please note I don’t mean this in a snarky “yet you work under capitalism lol” way.
I specifically mean big tech (like Microsoft, Google or Meta) and staying there for years without even looking for another job.
You can make choices for your life.
Sean@thomasfuchs big tech pays way above market rate, and people like to live in the most expensive cities. There's a bimodal distribution of tech jobs: a lot of high-paying big tech jobs where you suffer the cognitive dissonance of working for big tech, a tiny number of jobs with positive social impact while still having good pay, and a large number of jobs with sub-par pay but at least aren't evil
@thomasfuchs most people aren't skilled and lucky enough to get the few jobs in the middle, so they opt for high pay and cognitive dissonance if they're skilled (or experts at those kind of interviews), or average pay if they're not
Russell@seanlinsley @thomasfuchs Case in point: https://hachyderm.io/@skinnylatte/116224697908815655
If you want to do less evil you might assume nonprofit, but there's plenty of controversy that can happen there too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_G._Komen_for_the_Cure#Controversy_and_criticism Plus the pay usually sucks, "sacrifice for the cause" or some-such. Mom-and-pop operations aren't automatically egalitarian, or are actually more chaotic and disfavourable.
Adrianna Tan (@[email protected])
Attached: 1 image Why don’t people want to work at nonprofits? I have thoughts.
✧✦Catherine✦✧@seanlinsley @thomasfuchs don't forget "a job at a small company that claims to be doing good but is in fact abusive". after wasting my 20s on that (including ghosting a Google recruiter and once telling a Meta recruiter all but to fuck off), I'm not so sure I picked the right choices. how much of your health have you, Thomas, personally left at the door?
@whitequark @seanlinsley I’ve had very bad experiences too with small companies, nevertheless I never chose to work or stay somewhere that did things I couldn’t ethically support
Amin Girasol@thomasfuchs @whitequark @seanlinsley I'm sure you've learned that the more a company bangs on about how ethical they are, the less ethical they are in fact.
Cameron Watters@thomasfuchs 30 years of RSUs, above median wages, and max 401(k) contributions to pay for: student loans, $1m+ mortgage, maybe partnered to someone else in the in the industry, 2-3 kids who will need childcare, private school K-12, elite extra curriculars, and then uni, helping kids buy first homes, etc.
Being upper middle class is very expensive, and big tech covers those costs.
That's the archetype I see in the Seattle/Bellevue area, anyway.
@watters it’s still a choice that people make for themselves
and in any case at some point they’ll be laid off to please shareholders for a few days
@thomasfuchs I get it, and my career isn't in that mold.
But, I think it is the answer to the question.
A disappointing number of people live according to a variation "if it's not a crime and/or i can pay the fine, it's just fine" with little or no disruption from the cognitive dissonance.
Ziggy the Hamster ☎️ 4ZTH@thomasfuchs for me, it was that I was constantly kept in a fight/flight/freeze/fawn state and unable to actually have the spoons to get out
Incidentally this also explains why I was in an abusive relationship for most of the 17 years I was in a relationship with my ex
More compassion than you’re exhibiting would be appreciated… I don’t like that either thing happened to me
@ZiggyTheHamster There’s many smaller companies in tech that do not come with the baggage of big tech.
People don’t even try to leave (look for different jobs etc.) _despite knowing it’s bad what they’re supporting with their work_.
I have compassion and was in difficult situations myself, but many people, including specially in higher-up positions, just go ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
deech@thomasfuchs @ZiggyTheHamster It's not so cut and dry. IME small companies blindly take on the tech baggage of big companies but don't have the personnel so now that k8s cluster is your problem instead of a whole other team's. About social baggage and work life balance, I'm not sure.
@deech @ZiggyTheHamster I don’t think there’s many smaller companies who are working on toppling democracy, sticking people in concentration camps or are actively pursuing the algorithmic incineration of children half-way around the world
@thomasfuchs @ZiggyTheHamster Yep, 100% agree. The comment was more about the day-to-day frustrations but yes, you're right.
@thomasfuchs I got acquired into Big Tech. And I felt paralyzed.
I know there are folks who are totally cool with everything and are there without feeling trapped. Those people are part of the reason why I felt trapped.
Ferret@Being Left Behind Enjoyer Shaming workers for working under capitalism is quite the take.
kirch@thomasfuchs I've worked at the Big Tech places, and I've worked in the small Ma & Pa shops, and everything in between... None of them have been good arbiters of Morality or bastions of Knowledge, and "it's only business" excuses a lot of man's inhumanity to man.
Alexander The 1st@thomasfuchs For me, although I am not currently there, it would be the years of experience, as everything claims I need more years of work experience than I have ("What do you mean, 3 years + 1 year co-op experience and a bit of very short contracts does not mean 4 years of experience and/or not enough for a 5 year experience job posting?"), but also;
I do seem to have the Anti-Midas Touch, in that companies I work for tend to...go badly for unrelated reasons shortly after I work there;* my working for a bad tech company might be a way to...change them by my mere presence, which might explain why I go so long between jobs looking for a job.
I do seem to have the Anti-Midas Touch, in that companies I work for tend to...go badly for unrelated reasons shortly after I work there;* my working for a bad tech company might be a way to...change them by my mere presence, which might explain why I go so long between jobs looking for a job.
@AT1ST none of those companies seem to be especially evil to me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
@thomasfuchs They weren't (Although the last of the ones I had posted has...a checkered opinion by its customers.), but it's more that the timing of when I worked for them, and their short-term outcomes after my working there...have not been super great.
The last one took the longest, taking 5 years before being bought out by a controversial investment firm.
@thomasfuchs Based on small/medium workplaces: Each person is locked in their own trauma feedback loop that they're unable to look outside of themselves to see that this isn't the way things have to be or that other people can help. It's easier to say "If I don't then someone else will" than "I won't, you can't make me": the unknown is scary; better the devil you know / uncertainty is scary; better a paycheck than homeless.
I could go on, I've seen quite a few reasons why change doesn't happen.
Nick Main@thomasfuchs the daily experience and the source of most “fulfillment” comes from your immediate team. In larger places that team tends to more balanced and cohesive. At least from my experience.
The horrible dysfunction I’ve seen has been in smaller places. The non-profit I worked at was the worst.
Aleksandr Yakunichev@thomasfuchs Having "fulfilling" work is a moralistic argument from a privileged position—not everyone can afford changing jobs on a whim. I, for example, am willing to change the job, however, being an immigrant, I will be deported alongside with my family if I quit. Am I being immoral? This type of moralizing leads nowhere.
@yacodes You don’t need to quit for looking for a different job, and I’m obviously talking about people who have a choice.
I’m an immigrant myself. Please don’t lecture me.