Mastodawn

Alioth Fox (but you can call me Daddy~)

People are so scared of the terminal ;~;

Rusty Corgi Mar 13

@AliothFox I think a lot of people misunderstand why Linux users tend to use the the terminal. It's not that you have to use it, it's that there are a ton of tasks that are easier in it. It's a very slippery slope where you go into it very tacitly to copy a command into it that the internet told you about, then suddenly you're, like, "oh hey this is kinda nice I wonder if I can do... *boopboop* oh HECK that works!!" and it's all downhill from there.

But yeah, there's almost *always* a GUI for something you wanna do. It can be a little hard to find that GUI since a lot of Linux help sites are just, like, "here just copy this command" which is definitely a problem for people trying to avoid terminal.

Alioth Fox (but you can call me Daddy~)Mar 13

@Rusty My biggest worry about when Linux Desktop Finally Gets Adopted™ is actually not so much the average user being scared of the terminal - my worry is more the average user not understanding how powerful the Linux terminal actually is. When the typical brand of Linux tech support is "go to the terminal and paste this in," it's not hard to conceive some troll creating a lot of mischief by banking on the idea that someone will just Trust The Internet that a particular terminal command will work correctly.

Rusty Corgi Mar 13

@AliothFox Yeah that used to happen all the time actually. There's a reason rm -rf / is a meme. Nowadays it's safer since support sites are a bit more centralized and curated, but it's still definitely a thing that can happen.

Usually the bigger problem is people overestimating what they can do in terminal and then breaking their system. The biggest issue I see tech literate Windows users facing is that they come to Linux, start messing with a bunch of stuff, lack the knowledge to fix it, then swear off Linux as broken, usually while trying to make Linux behave exactly like Windows which, like, it never will.

A lot of people encourage Windows users by saying that Linux is the same as Windows, and in a lot of ways it is, but they also need to be encouraged to try and adapt to some new things that (imho) are actually better. Like not downloading random .exe's from the internet.

(sorry I always somehow manage to ramble ;^; I need an editor)

Alioth Fox (but you can call me Daddy~)Mar 13

@Rusty That's the nice thing - you can get Windows stuff to run on Linux; you just have to do it through virtualization and/or compatibility layers (which, to at least some degree - especially with virtualization - insulates you from the random .exe that you decided to download).

My way of encouraging people to try Linux isn't saying "it's like Windows" (it's not like Windows - that's basically its best quality). What I tend to say more often is stuff like "it's not any harder to learn than Windows" or "it's an operating system like any other" or something like that.

A lot of people think that the non-Windows UX is going to be the sticking point that makes them hate it, but the truth is that the real sticking point is the lack of compatibility, which 1) is improving every day, and 2) usually has alternatives or workarounds (even if they are a bit obtuse at times).

Rusty Corgi Mar 13

@AliothFox I'm hoping WinBoat gets GPU pass through at some point I do think there are decent FOSS alternatives on Linux for software people use in Windows, but it's a big ask to be, like, "Hey, change your operating system AND change all of the applications you use "

Although, unless you're an artist and your preferred art program is Windows-only or you're a video editor stuck in the Adobe Suite, there aren't many programs I can think of that you'd be leaving behind. I guess that's the one upside to everything being a dumbass Electron app now-- credit to Telegram for using Qt, even if Telegram is butts.

Alioth Fox (but you can call me Daddy~)Mar 13

@Rusty Unfortunately my preferred software is on... basically every platform EXCEPT Linux lmao

I managed to install it on Mint through Wine, but it kept crashing any time I tried to launch it. Granted, that was me trying to open it in a VM, so it's entirely possible that on an actual computer that isn't a potato, I could get it working.

Rusty Corgi Mar 13

@AliothFox Is it ClipStudio?

Alioth Fox (but you can call me Daddy~)Mar 13

@Rusty Yes - and it's version 5.0, which was just released. There are a ton of QOL updates in the new version that I really don't want to go back to doing without ;~;

Rusty Corgi Mar 14

@AliothFox Oooh lemme try doing some science then

...I forgot to turn scaling on for the installer though. Someone get me a magnifying glass pls.

Rusty Corgi Mar 14

@AliothFox So I spent a really long time dicking with it, and yeah you can get it to install and run, but it's definitely a bit of a headache to get set up. All of the web-based menus work okay in Clip Studio 4, but they get really wonky in Clip Studio 5. I dunno why so much of this app is built with embedded Edge browser windows, it's such an odd choice. It seems like the best approach is to install Clip Studio 4, activate it, then update to 5.

I would say the headache of getting it work compounded by it behaving strangely when it's installed makes it probably not worth it. It's so frustrating because the app works mostly fine, it's just all the Edge stuff that breaks it.

Alioth Fox (but you can call me Daddy~)Mar 14

@Rusty Okay, you are talking about "Clip Studio," not "Clip Studio Paint."

Clip Studio is kind of the launcher/hub. Clip Studio Paint is the actual art software. Weirdly, I had no trouble getting Clip Studio (the hub) to work in Linux - the part that kept crashing was Clip Studio Paint (the art software). The problem with installing Clip Studio 4 and updating it is that you end up paying a lot more that way because you have to buy the license twice. The v.4 + v.5 upgrade is cheaper than buying v.4 + v.5 outright, but it's still considerably more expensive than just buying v.5.

I think the reason it's built in with Edge browser windows is because they only really expect Microsoft users to use it. On iOS, for instance, when you search for assets on the hub, it doesn't load the web pages in-app - it opens a browser (Safari in this case) separately and has you complete the operation through that (since everything in Clip Studio is mostly tied to your account and not your device).

Rusty Corgi Mar 14

@AliothFox I mean both of them since they have the same problems.

And I get having an Edge window for the asset store and stuff, but they use it for the license key validation which seems really dumb. Using a website for dynamic content makes a lot of sense (and, weirdly enough, that works) but using it for static forms is weird, and for some reason that's that stuff specifically that's broken.

Alioth Fox (but you can call me Daddy~)Mar 14

@Rusty Don't get me wrong - Krita is great software (and getting better all the time), and I do take time to play around with it from time to time. But CSP has a lot of features that... I could live without them, but the annoyance of having to live without them kind of still outweighs the annoyance of having to use Windows for me lol

@AliothFox @Rusty

i want to get a stylus/pen that works with my recently acquired android tablet to try krita with, but my workflow depends so much on CSP on windows stuff lol. I have acquired tablets to try an get something more "flexible" to draw and work with.

I definitely am not getting the damn subscription for mobile csp lol. It really sucks that it does not support linux. I want to make the full desktop transition to linux but

yeah

**yeah**

Alioth Fox (but you can call me Daddy~)Mar 14

@Loosf @Rusty You do know that CSP is compatible with Android, right? (Oh wait, you just said you didn't want the subscription - ignore me lol)

Alioth Fox (but you can call me Daddy~)Mar 14

@Loosf @Rusty What I will say re. the CSP subscription is that it can be worth it - it's not super expensive (like $25-30 a year unless you need the EX version, which most people don't), and given the fact that they're basically releasing a new version every year anyway (it feels like we got v.4 less than 8 months ago and now we're already getting v.5), it almost works out cheaper to just get the subscription at this point (assuming you want to stay on the latest version, which I guess some people don't care about).

@AliothFox @Rusty

i cannot afford the upgrade to 5 this month even with the discount lol

maybe in 3-5 months on their next sale.
Still pissed off that they now do not allow for it working on two machines at once without the sub

Alioth Fox (but you can call me Daddy~)Mar 14

@Loosf @Rusty The QoL updates in version 5 are definitely worth the cost of the upgrade once you can afford it. It's better at backing up unsaved work, and it now has the shape/line post-correction like Procreate has always had. Lots of other things too that just make things a lot more streamlined (though I really wish they would bring in the option to use Simple View on PC - right now that's a mobile-only feature).

@AliothFox @Rusty

honestly i am very excited for the "import 3d model directly" thing

Alioth Fox (but you can call me Daddy~)Mar 14

@Loosf @Rusty It is very powerful software - honestly way more powerful than you would expect, for the price. It goes on sale all the time, too. It feels weird to pay $30 (or even $50) for what is easily $100+ software.

Rusty Corgi Mar 14

@AliothFox No I totally get it for sure. I really don't like giving up software I enjoy using. My whole workflow is using Linux apps to the point that I really struggle when I'm stuck in a different OS, not because it's a different OS, but because it doesn't have my apps.

I do wish more developers would target WINE though. I get that porting an application would be a lot of work, but just making some tweaks (like not putting your license validation into an embedded Edge window ) to ensure that it works at least a little better in WINE would be nice. A lot of video game developers target Proton, but no application developers really target WINE.

Alioth Fox (but you can call me Daddy~)Mar 14

@Rusty Now that I've gotten my iPad Pro working again, I have a decent "portable art station," so I don't really need my laptop for that purpose anymore. I might explore putting Linux Mint on that laptop so that I can explore it a bit without needing virtualization. Even if I mess it up, I barely use that computer anymore (and it's not even a bad computer; it's pretty low-mileage - not high specs, not something I can really use for deep gaming or anything, just a cheap off-the-shelf Asus work laptop), so I'm not out of too much.

dlweedoart Mar 16

@Rusty @AliothFox there are folks working hard on fixes but yeah it can be really annoying to get the newest version of CSP running in wine.

if the android version wasn't subscription only folks would just run that since it works basically flawlessly with stuff like waydroid.

Alioth Fox (but you can call me Daddy~)5d ago

@dlweedoart @Rusty Hell, if it meant I could use Linux effectively and keep being able to use Clip Studio, I would probably be willing to pay for the subscription. It's less than $30 a year, and since they already come out with a new version every 8 months or so, the perpetual license doesn't even really save you all that much money (at least if you want the most up-to-date stuff - which I usually do, since they genuinely pack every new version with crazy QOL updates that we didn't even know we needed).

dlweedoart 5d ago

@AliothFox I don't remember how the trial works on the android version but that'd be the best way to test it and make sure it all plays nice with your hardware in your distro of choice.

@Rusty @AliothFox It looks to me like WinBoat is just a wrapper to install windows in a VM, which seems to defeat the purpose of “not running Windows”, is it not?

Basically reverse-WSL…

Alioth Fox (but you can call me Daddy~)Mar 14

@CrinkleSix @Rusty For people (like me) who have certain programs that they need but aren't compatible with Linux, it's a good option if I wanted to fully switch.

Rusty Corgi Mar 14

@CrinkleSix @AliothFox WSL is an insanely nice tool to have in Windows so I dunno why you wouldn't want the reverse of it in Linux. Outside of gaming, WINE isn't really viable for most software, so having a VM that actually integrates with your system would be a great benefit to anyone who wants Windows software.

@Rusty @AliothFox yeah, just my thought was that most of this talk of switching to Linux is to get away from the Microslop enshittification of Windows, and if you end up installing and running Windows anyway, that sorta defeats the purpose. It's all still there, even if some of it is hidden.

Does your WinBoat still want you to sign in with a Microsoft Account and turn on OneDrive and bug you about Copilot and using Edge?

Alioth Fox (but you can call me Daddy~)Mar 14

@CrinkleSix @Rusty "Why use Windows if you're switching to Linux?"

Answer:

Rusty Corgi Mar 14

@CrinkleSix @AliothFox You still need to sign in with a Microsoft account, yes. It can't nag you about OneDrive or Copilot or Edge though because the desktop is abstracted away from you and you only see it if you directly boot into it. It uses RDP to run application windows directly in your Linux environment.

I personally wouldn't run WinBoat, but if someone wanted Windows applications in their Linux environment and dealing with the Windows activation bullshit didn't bother them, then it'd be a good option. Or, well, it would be if WinBoat had GPU pass through, which it doesn't.

Alioth Fox (but you can call me Daddy~)Mar 14

@Rusty @CrinkleSix Even my Windows doesn't nag me about Copilot or Edge lol

There are ways to get Windows to shut up - like Six said, all the options are there, they're just hidden. But people do make tools :3

Rusty Corgi Mar 14

@AliothFox @CrinkleSix Honestly, my biggest problem with Windows 11 is the shell. I don't like that they stapled a lot of ReactNative crap into it.

blobfoxthinkgoogly

The Start Menu is one of the most crucial things on your desktop so it's wild to me to make it a glorified web page. (If you can't tell after all my rambling today, I really detest web infecting desktop applications.

blobCat_smirk_paw

)

Robin Syl 🌸🧃Mar 14

@Rusty if your app is just a glorified web browser then I'm relegating you to a bookmark in my web browser

Robin Syl 🌸🧃Mar 14

@Rusty @AliothFox People seem to understand that macOS won't work exactly like Windows so I'm not sure what the expectation for Linux is

Rusty Corgi Mar 14

@robinsyl @AliothFox I think because people expect the opposite of what they expect from Linux, that being a stupidly simple iOS-like experience. Which is, uh, also not true

blobfoxlaughsweat