TattieMar 6

This post popped up on my feed via the always wonderful @ siege. I went into the Reddit original, read the responses there, and immediately had thoughts about nondirectivity. About what is sometimes known as the #EggPrimeDirective
https://masto.hackers.town/@siege/116178512093556616

Lemme look up what I posted before about this, hang on...

CJ "siege" Bellwether (@[email protected])

Attached: 1 image this was just brought to my attention so im including it for any cis people who have read any of this and are curious what sort of shape the people im talking about are in:

Hackers.Town
Show threadTattieMar 6
Here we go:
https://eldritch.cafe/@Tattie/116115211813976139
Tattie (@[email protected])

It's quite interesting as a #trans person and a counselling student, to see the #EggPrimeDirective drop right out of a famous work of psychological theory. 1/

Eldritch Café
Show threadTattieMar 6

Most of the comments in Reddit seemed to be pretty directive. "Babe, this sounds pretty trans". "You should get gender-affirming counselling". "You can transition and live your hopes in this life, not the next."

And look, for sure, the thoughts in this post are so familiar from my denial days. I kinda wanna shake this person by the shoulders too.

But this risks just pushing them away. I remember how fragile I was at this point, how tightly I tried to cling onto my disintegrating sense of self.

Show threadTattieMar 6

At the other extreme, the naïve reading of the Egg Prime Directive ("don't tell them") is that you should disengage.

"Well, whatever you're going thru, I hope you figure yourself out." ❤️🤗

No. That hurts just to type. It feels dishonest, it feels abandoning, at a time when they're being brave, when they're reaching out.

Show threadTattieMar 6

So what's a response that is both engaging and nondirective?

What would you say here? (Feel free to offer as a reply)

What do you reckon your fave Tattie would say?

Show threadAnyia, geeky 🏳️‍⚧️ girlMar 6

@Tattie "I can't speak for your gender, but that sounds really similar to how I felt before I was able to realise and accept that I was trans. Some material that helped me process my feelings were The Gender Dysphoria Bible (which I started reading just to confirm I wasn't trans), SGW, and a few other trans bloggers. Nobody can tell you what your gender is, but I found reading other people's experiences really helpful to discover what I relate to."

or something like that 🤷‍♀️

Show threadTattieMar 6
@anyia lovely, yes. The Gender Dysphoria Bible is truly a gift  and SGW too 
Show threadJuniper 🏳️‍⚧️🌲Mar 6
@Tattie @anyia so I guess I'm not clear on how this is really different from "That sounds pretty trans to me." Perhaps that is just me being autistic and trying to strip things down to a core meaning?
Show threadKelly, (who Cannot, Today)Mar 6
@eruonna Yeah I think it's logically the same meaning but the shorter one is more likely to be experienced as "I think you're trans" rather than the intended "this sounds similar to trans experiences, just so you know".
Show threadFaith, Purple haired feminist 🧋   Mar 6

@i_cannot_today @eruonna I don't actually think they're even logically the same. One starts with a personal emotional connection, completely outside of labels: "I had those feelings, too." The other jumps straight to assigning a label to the other person, or at least to their feelings: "Those are trans feelings."

If the question the person is asking is, "Am I really trans? I have these feelings but I don't think that makes me trans." Then a simple, non-judgmental, "Yeah, that all sounds pretty trans to me." may give them just the push they need to dig a little deeper.

But if they're further in denial and sure they're not trans, as in the quoted post, it may backfire because you're directly contradicting something they believe about themselves. A gentler, more subtle approach may be needed.

But at the end of the day, you can never know which of those two scenarios describes OP based on that post alone. It looks a lot like the second one but it can be hard to tell.

@Tattie

Show threadTattie
@faithisleaping yeah, I feel like @anyia 's answer isn't literally directive, but it does run the risk of being interpreted that way.
Links to resources are always so valuable tho, so if the OP isn't spooked, they might learn something powerful about themself.
@i_cannot_today @eruonna
Mar 6 at 3:07pmWeb
Show threadFaith, Purple haired feminist 🧋   Mar 6

@Tattie @anyia @i_cannot_today @eruonna

Yeah. There's definitely a whole spectrum here and you never know exactly what the other person needs or will respond to. So while I would personally recommend a less direct approach for someone who seems that deep in denial, as long as you're being kind and genuine, I'm also not going to be too critical in my trans sibling who's just trying to help.

To me, it's not really about absolute position on some defined, linear spectrum, either. It's so multi-dimensional that you can't pin it down like that. What they really need is to come across the one trans person who is saying the thing that they need to hear in that moment. In light of that, as long as people are being kind and genuine and pointing them in a positive direction and not down the AGP rabbit hole or anything like that, I think it's probably good to hear a variety of different responses at different times.

Show threadAnyia, geeky 🏳️‍⚧️ girlMar 6

@Tattie @faithisleaping @i_cannot_today @eruonna I am inevitably biased by my own experience. Looking back, I needed three things:
- awareness that transness and gender dysphoria existed
- get hit in the face (metaphorically) by reading the GDB to shock me out of my denial
- permission/acceptance that I'm "trans enough"

The first I'd gotten through my extended friendship circle (there were no signs), the second I got when trying to hide from the possibility that I was trans and read the GDB just to do due diligence and put the possibility out of my mind (I really didn't want to turn out to be trans and have to face it all), and the third from interactions here, mostly.

Someone telling me that I was definitely trans wouldn't have been helpful. Someone telling me I *might* be, gave me permission and impetus to dig a bit deeper, even if just to establish the negative. Then reading the GDB, a passive resource not telling me what I am, but simply describing what gender dysphoria feels like and commonly manifests like, and having to face up to "fuck, this is describing me" is what I needed. I wouldn't want to withhold that from anyone else. I wish it could've happened to me a decade earlier.

Show threadLou 🏳️‍⚧️Mar 7

@anyia
I needed:
- to relate to (well, other) trans people (memes subreddits did that for me) and *enbies*, I don't think I could have accepted it with only accounts from trans women
- to realise that I actually had dysphoria (thanks to the GDB, got the link under a meme) (not saying that dysphoria is necessary to be trans, but I though I couldn't be because I didn't have any (I had a lot 🙃))

After that, it still took me time to actually do anything about it and I only stopped thinking I wasn't "trans enough" after starting HRT, thanks to the quick mental improvements.
I had a local trans friend (learned she was right before COVID and didn't get to talk a lot with her at the time) that told me "I know"¹ when I came out to her… I don't know how I would have reacted if she had told me directly earlier.

1: I was too shocked to ask if she had figured it out recently from my attempts at telling her or if she had known for a while.

@Tattie @faithisleaping @i_cannot_today @eruonna

Show threadFaith, Purple haired feminist 🧋   Mar 7

@koalou I had this one really good friend (also trans) who responded to my coming out with "Congratulations!" I had no idea what to do with that. I did NOT feel like being congratulated at the time. But now I'm glad she did. She was right. I found myself and that's a reason to party.

@anyia @Tattie @i_cannot_today @eruonna