Mastodawn

This post popped up on my feed via the always wonderful @ siege. I went into the Reddit original, read the responses there, and immediately had thoughts about nondirectivity. About what is sometimes known as the #EggPrimeDirective
https://masto.hackers.town/@siege/116178512093556616

Lemme look up what I posted before about this, hang on...

CJ "siege" Bellwether (@[email protected])

Attached: 1 image this was just brought to my attention so im including it for any cis people who have read any of this and are curious what sort of shape the people im talking about are in:

Hackers.Town

Here we go:
https://eldritch.cafe/@Tattie/116115211813976139

Tattie (@[email protected])

It's quite interesting as a #trans person and a counselling student, to see the #EggPrimeDirective drop right out of a famous work of psychological theory. 1/

Eldritch Café

Most of the comments in Reddit seemed to be pretty directive. "Babe, this sounds pretty trans". "You should get gender-affirming counselling". "You can transition and live your hopes in this life, not the next."

And look, for sure, the thoughts in this post are so familiar from my denial days. I kinda wanna shake this person by the shoulders too.

But this risks just pushing them away. I remember how fragile I was at this point, how tightly I tried to cling onto my disintegrating sense of self.

At the other extreme, the naïve reading of the Egg Prime Directive ("don't tell them") is that you should disengage.

"Well, whatever you're going thru, I hope you figure yourself out." ❤️🤗

No. That hurts just to type. It feels dishonest, it feels abandoning, at a time when they're being brave, when they're reaching out.

So what's a response that is both engaging and nondirective?

What would you say here? (Feel free to offer as a reply)

What do you reckon your fave Tattie would say?

"Wow, I really feel the longing in this comment. These feel like some weighty thoughts. Would you feel safe sharing with me why you've ruled out the idea that you are trans?"

ChloChloaca Mar 6

@Tattie Yep, this is the way to do it. Relate it to your own experience and share resources with them to "help them rule out all the possibilities."

Sometimes someone will read the GD Bible and be like "yeah that's not me." But most of the time? They're gonna sit with it and be like "oh shit."

But THEY have to come to the "oh shit" moment. You just have to nudge them onto that path.

ChloChloaca Mar 6

@Tattie I just found the post. I always want to see the OP respond a little, just so people can interact. There's so many replies but OP is silent..

Anyia, geeky 🏳️‍⚧️ girl Mar 6

@Tattie "I can't speak for your gender, but that sounds really similar to how I felt before I was able to realise and accept that I was trans. Some material that helped me process my feelings were The Gender Dysphoria Bible (which I started reading just to confirm I wasn't trans), SGW, and a few other trans bloggers. Nobody can tell you what your gender is, but I found reading other people's experiences really helpful to discover what I relate to."

or something like that 🤷‍♀️

@anyia lovely, yes. The Gender Dysphoria Bible is truly a gift

blobhaj_trans_heart

and SGW too

blobhaj_tiny_hearts

Juniper 🏳️‍⚧️🌲Mar 6

@Tattie @anyia so I guess I'm not clear on how this is really different from "That sounds pretty trans to me." Perhaps that is just me being autistic and trying to strip things down to a core meaning?

Kelly, (who Cannot, Today)Mar 6

@eruonna Yeah I think it's logically the same meaning but the shorter one is more likely to be experienced as "I think you're trans" rather than the intended "this sounds similar to trans experiences, just so you know".

Faith, Purple haired feminist 🧋

@i_cannot_today @eruonna I don't actually think they're even logically the same. One starts with a personal emotional connection, completely outside of labels: "I had those feelings, too." The other jumps straight to assigning a label to the other person, or at least to their feelings: "Those are trans feelings."

If the question the person is asking is, "Am I really trans? I have these feelings but I don't think that makes me trans." Then a simple, non-judgmental, "Yeah, that all sounds pretty trans to me." may give them just the push they need to dig a little deeper.

But if they're further in denial and sure they're not trans, as in the quoted post, it may backfire because you're directly contradicting something they believe about themselves. A gentler, more subtle approach may be needed.

But at the end of the day, you can never know which of those two scenarios describes OP based on that post alone. It looks a lot like the second one but it can be hard to tell.

@faithisleaping yeah, I feel like @anyia 's answer isn't literally directive, but it does run the risk of being interpreted that way.
Links to resources are always so valuable tho, so if the OP isn't spooked, they might learn something powerful about themself.
@i_cannot_today @eruonna

Faith, Purple haired feminist 🧋

@Tattie @anyia @i_cannot_today @eruonna

Yeah. There's definitely a whole spectrum here and you never know exactly what the other person needs or will respond to. So while I would personally recommend a less direct approach for someone who seems that deep in denial, as long as you're being kind and genuine, I'm also not going to be too critical in my trans sibling who's just trying to help.

To me, it's not really about absolute position on some defined, linear spectrum, either. It's so multi-dimensional that you can't pin it down like that. What they really need is to come across the one trans person who is saying the thing that they need to hear in that moment. In light of that, as long as people are being kind and genuine and pointing them in a positive direction and not down the AGP rabbit hole or anything like that, I think it's probably good to hear a variety of different responses at different times.

Anyia, geeky 🏳️‍⚧️ girl Mar 6

@Tattie @faithisleaping @i_cannot_today @eruonna I am inevitably biased by my own experience. Looking back, I needed three things:
- awareness that transness and gender dysphoria existed
- get hit in the face (metaphorically) by reading the GDB to shock me out of my denial
- permission/acceptance that I'm "trans enough"

The first I'd gotten through my extended friendship circle (there were no signs), the second I got when trying to hide from the possibility that I was trans and read the GDB just to do due diligence and put the possibility out of my mind (I really didn't want to turn out to be trans and have to face it all), and the third from interactions here, mostly.

Someone telling me that I was definitely trans wouldn't have been helpful. Someone telling me I *might* be, gave me permission and impetus to dig a bit deeper, even if just to establish the negative. Then reading the GDB, a passive resource not telling me what I am, but simply describing what gender dysphoria feels like and commonly manifests like, and having to face up to "fuck, this is describing me" is what I needed. I wouldn't want to withhold that from anyone else. I wish it could've happened to me a decade earlier.

Lou 🏳️‍⚧️Mar 7

@anyia
I needed:
- to relate to (well, other) trans people (memes subreddits did that for me) and *enbies*, I don't think I could have accepted it with only accounts from trans women
- to realise that I actually had dysphoria (thanks to the GDB, got the link under a meme) (not saying that dysphoria is necessary to be trans, but I though I couldn't be because I didn't have any (I had a lot 🙃))

After that, it still took me time to actually do anything about it and I only stopped thinking I wasn't "trans enough" after starting HRT, thanks to the quick mental improvements.
I had a local trans friend (learned she was right before COVID and didn't get to talk a lot with her at the time) that told me "I know"¹ when I came out to her… I don't know how I would have reacted if she had told me directly earlier.

1: I was too shocked to ask if she had figured it out recently from my attempts at telling her or if she had known for a while.

@Tattie @faithisleaping @i_cannot_today @eruonna

Faith, Purple haired feminist 🧋

@koalou I had this one really good friend (also trans) who responded to my coming out with "Congratulations!" I had no idea what to do with that. I did NOT feel like being congratulated at the time. But now I'm glad she did. She was right. I found myself and that's a reason to party.

@anyia @Tattie @i_cannot_today @eruonna

Juniper 🏳️‍⚧️🌲Mar 6

@faithisleaping @i_cannot_today @Tattie To me, "you sound like me when I was an egg" still entails "you sound like an egg". I'm pretty sure I would have had the same reaction to either one. This is where I always take issue with Prime Directive stuff. It feels like you either take the very narrow interpretation of "don't tell anyone definitively that they are trans" or the much broader "don't reveal to anyone that you think they might be trans". And in the context of something like this example, any comment that connects what they've said to transness is doing the latter. Again, autistic, so this could be excessively black and white thinking, but it is where I am, and it is how I think I would have experienced any such comments as an egg. (I don't know for sure; I didn't really talk to trans people while I was an egg. I think that is part of why I stayed an egg.)

Alyssa Coghlan Mar 6

@Tattie "So kind of like premonitions of a future life rather than recollections of a past one? What's your favourite thing you've imagined doing as her?" (but basically anything that accepts the framing and explores it, instead of challenging the framing itself)

@ancoghlan oooh, I like this direction.

diana 🏳️‍⚧️🦋🌱Mar 6

I remember the moment when my egg cracked. There was a big reddit thread about before after pictures of people just like me who made the journey and that's when I knew it was possible. The light in the closet turned on for the first time and that's when I started reading how to do this nonstop for months. That was the most amazing time of my life and the magic I had only dreamed about was happening. It got real when I met others in real life that showed me the way. I wouldn't have believed it, but my career started thriving at a magnitude I did not expect. Everyone feels that energy.

Knowing it was definitely possible is what did it for me. The friends I made along my journey made me stronger and alive.

Aura Everitt Mar 6

@Tattie I think about this a lot and I don't have an answer I’m satisfied with yet. If it comes up, then I think my approach right now would be to make myself available to talk, and make it clear that they can ask me (a trans woman) anything at all in confidence, with no judgement, and no assumptions. I wouldn't do any *telling*.

Consensus Tullyality Mar 6

@Tattie what ultimately led to my taking the idea seriously was some kind presumably-trans person saying nothing more than "well it seems like it might be worth interrogating that feeling, no? worst case you end up knowing yourself a little better" and linking the GDB

yes, in a reddit comment thread, immediately following a shitfight I'd participated in to push back against "haha men are trash" wherein I called myself one and then commented about how wrong it felt to say that

of course, my next reply was an extremely sarcastic "yeah, 'cause that's what I need right now, an identity crisis"

anyway,,,

@tully oooh, this feels familiar.

A similar moment: I remember pushing back against the term "mansplaining" and saying just the term "'splaining" felt more palatable to me.

Such an 🥚 moment.

Faith, Purple haired feminist 🧋

@Tattie Honestly, I would probably just say, "I know those feelings well. I've been there. A lot of people have. You're not weird or a freak or anything like that. And I'm here if you ever want to talk about it." and leave it at that.

Of course, that assumes I actually have the time and energy to have another one of those conversations. (I don't always.)

@faithisleaping no one of us can be there for every confused and questioning person out there, but you know how it is, today's hatchlings are tomorrow's elder siblings. 🐣

@Tattie I know I *sorta* am in this boat? Like I don't feel dysphoric in my body (except for my stupid face hair... I HAAAATE that shit), but part of me would mind having nice long hair (stupid pattern balding starting

), proper boobs, being more emotional.. and I look good with lip balm on... and in arm warmers.. so I'm struggling in my place in all this as well

@akiiwata you say you wouldn't mind those things (assuming a typo), but it feels stronger than that to me?

@Tattie I mean maybe it is and it just hasn't settled into my mind? Not gonna lie, if I didn't have someone cohabiting in my lil 300 sq. ft. (about 28 sq. m.) apartment, I would be more comfortable exploring... but yeah..

@akiiwata ah, that does put a damper on things. I hope you can find a comfortable place to explore these things and your feelings towards them. 🫂❤️

@Tattie I do little things, like when said cohabitor is sleeping, or at night when not easy to see (because they have light sensitivity issue due to previous medical issues) like having pretty lips (omg the feeling of the balm on my lips... chef's kiss!), 🌶️ time with more... femmy sounds.. yah.. I do what i can..

heart_genderfluid

@akiiwata that "chef's kiss" feeling, ah 😊

@Tattie Yeah huh.. all smooth, and soft, and yummy..

neohaj_hug_heart

Miriam's on Medical Leave Mar 6

"Honey, 'it hurts knowing i cant be her' is dysphoria. You are experiencing dysphoria every night."

Julia Rez Mar 6

I begin to wonder if the EPD is something left over from the awful time when transness was experienced as something shameful and to be avoided _by trans people themselves._

(Yes I have direct experience of that, and I will never not be angry with those people, but glad that I had the fortitude to ignore them. At cost.)

Contrast with someone going "So, um. I think I might like Country music..." and how people would react to that.

@JuliaRez I've heard that argument, but I disagree, and my previous thread goes into some detail as to why

Bernie Luckily Does It Mar 10

@JuliaRez @Tattie I remember when my sister came out to the family about liking rap music. We still love her. (Just kidding. It's not my favorite genre but some of it I like. But she did treat it a lot like a coming out.)

@Tattie Maybe offer to listen / be a sounding board?