acargitzThe Iran War Is Unfathomably Depraved
svelteciderPerhaps one of the most pointless wars in recent memory.
deadbeef79000Most the the recent pointless eats have one thing in common.
Religion + authoritarianism
All ears are pointless.
Fuck no, some wars are entirely needed like the haitian revolution, or really any war fought against colonisation… Imagine if the chinese people hadn’t fought against imperialism, or the russian people against tsarism
It’s the Haitian revolution, not the Haitian war
If raising an army and establishing a nation to fight another army defending it’s nation is not what war is then I don’t know what you’re definition is
What event are you referring to?
really any war fought against colonisation… Imagine if the chinese people hadn’t fought against imperialism, or the russian people against tsarism
So you’re saying the people banding together to overthrow their oppressors is waging war? That’s like saying killing someone violently raping you makes you a murderer. Its textbook victim blaming, and you should be ashamed of yourself.
Defending yourself against imperialism isn’t waging war either. The imperialism is the warmongering, not the defense. Again, more victim blaming bullshit.
well idk why all these people call it independence war, revolutionary war then but I don’t really care about these semantics. To most people a war is a systematic, organized application of lethal violence between two or more parties over control of a piece of land and it’s population. This can be for oppression or liberation. If you have a different definition than most than alright, but I’m not “victim blaming” for going by the definition most people use (including those fighting it) that’s ridiculous lol.
Yes, you are victim blaming by suggesting people defending themselves are to blame for war.
I’m trying to understand how they are blaming anyone? Please explain what exactly he said that you consider victim blaming.
Insisting that the people defending themselves in war are just as responsible for the war as the people attacking them, therefore war isn’t pointless. That’s a ludricrous stance and puts blame on the victims for the war.
Yes killing anyone is murder no matter the reason, but sometimes murder is justifiable. It’s just fucking words yo, pretty fucked hill to be dieing on.
War is bad, full fuckin stop but that doesn’t mean war isnt a broad term that could be used to define alot of actions.
The law doesn’t even agree with you. No, killing someone violently raping you isn’t murder, and fuck your rape-apoligism.
But it’s what Americans Israel wants!
Iran’s government needed toppling, but the ends do not justify the means. How you do something is just as important as what you’re doing, and this is being done in a horrible, unjustifiable way for deeply nefarious reasons, and the fact that some sort of good may come of it (though that remains yet to be seen) does not excuse the fact that most of it is really, really bad.
What is this imperialist trash doing in an ostensibly “progressive” com?
ynthrepicSettle down. We need to have principles to live together in a global society. Moral relativism will get us nowhere and rampant individualism is a big reason why capitalism inevitably leads back to authoritarianism. Under capitalism the ends always justify the means.
A progressive world is one in which we have international law and a functioning UN that actually gives a shit about human rights, dignity, and freedoms. That should mean liberating those under oppressive regimes.
I hate nobody in this world more than Trump right now, but the one thing he gets wrong by accident is that relying on the US to do the dirty work of foreign intervention was never the right move.
The UN collectively should have liberated Iran years ago, and stepped in to keep Afghanistan out of Taliban hands and more. These nations screw over their people constantly and they clearly couldn’t care less about their neighbors either.
We should work together as a global order to uplift everyone.
With that said, there should be sanctions on the US for the shit they’re doing right now, and Israel too of course. For the same reasons. International law doesn’t mean anything if it’s just might is right.
The UN has no executive power. You will still rely on countries with all type of bad motivations that do not serve the iranian population
Who grants executive power? Because it should be able to act military upon resolution from its members if it cannot already. Economic contribution could determine voting weight, and veto rules need to stop single powers blocking resolutions. Veto should either be unanimous among the biggest powers or similarly a collective of the smaller/medium powers.
The goal is for there to be a democratic vote, preferably with proportional voting and protection of voters (so no intimidation). Then mechanisms to support and defend the new government whole it establishes its various mechanisms for decision making. All UN countries required to contribute proportionally according to their economic status.
I know this isn’t reality. But this or something like it should be.
So a one world government dominated by the West that countries are forced to submit themselves to.
That’s what you described
We need to have principles to live together in a global society. Moral relativism will get us nowhere
I have principles, imperialist; I’m not the one advocating for the West to ignore international law and national sovereignty. “The West should impose it’s tyrannical will on the global South” is not a principle, it’s just chauvanism.
A progressive world is one in which we have international law and a functioning UN that actually gives a shit about human rights, dignity, and freedoms. That should mean liberating those under oppressive regimes.
“International law is when the West gets to ignore international law.”
The dirty work of foreign intervention
Damn, you sure dropped your pretense off caring about international law real fast.
The UN collectively should have liberated Iran years ago, and stepped in to keep Afghanistan out of Taliban hands as the US left, and more.
“The UN should have done what western chauvanists want it to!”
Ok, so again, you don’t give a shit about international law, you just want the West to enforce it’s will. Notice how you don’t suggest the UN should “liberate” (read: destroy) the actual worst abusers in the world, Israel and the US, just their enemies. The US occupying Afghanistan is fine, but the UN should only intervene if they leave, apparently.
These nations screw over their people constantly and they clearly couldn’t care less about their neighbors either.
Fuck you; your nations are infinitely worse.
case in point Iran attacking its natural allies.
“How dare Iran attack our military bases when we use them to launch an illegal war of aggression against them!”
Fuck off. Iran is following international law, you aren’t.
We should work together as a global order to uplift everyone.
Uplift yourself you bloodthirsty savages. This is just warmed over colonialist arguments from the 1800s.
With that said, there should be sanctions on the US for the shit they’re doing right now, and Israel too of course.
You mean the UN should be invading them to institute regime change right? Just as it should be doing for all the EU countries backing the most brutal genocide of the century? Oh no, of course not. You only believe the West has that right. Because you’re a chauvanist who doesn’t believe in international law.
International law doesn’t mean anything if it’s just might is right.
It also doesn’t mean anything when it’s just a way for white supremacist westerners like you to justify brutally dominating the rest of the world.
@[email protected] l, seriously, why do we have to have this imperialist trash here?
Chill. Iran funds proxy militias. That’s not a violation of international law?
Everyone’s fucking ignoring international law in the name of imperialism. If you’re going to assume my call for a principled approach to international foreign policy is just an excuse for the thing I want to solve… Well fuck mate. Let’s just forget about giving any kinds of shit about anyone but ourselves.
Is that the world you want to live in?
Chill
No, fuck you. People shouldn’t be “chill” in the face of mass slaughter.
Iran funds proxy militias. That’s not a violation of international law?
No. It isn’t. And you were literally advocating for the funding of militias in Iran. Again, you don’t give a shit about international law. You certainly aren’t advocating for invading and overthrowing every nation that funds foreign military groups.
Everyone’s fucking ignoring international law in the name of whatever selfish ideology.
No. You are, and you’re justifying it to yourself by assuming everyone else does it.
If you’re going to assume my call for a principled approach to international foreign policy
You’re not calling for a principled approach to international foreign policy. You’re calling for western domination of the global South.
Let’s just forget about giving any kinds of shit about anyone but ourselves. Is that the world you want to live in
Mate, that’s the world you’re advocating for, chauvanist prick. I’m advocating for a world where imperialist crackers are actually bound by the same international law as the rest of us.
You’re being so unnecessarily abrasive and insulting. You’re totally misunderstanding or misrepresenting what I’m saying. This is a waste of time.
I’m happy you’re passionate. I’m not your enemy. We both probably vote progressive. If you want to have a conversation take a stop back and actually read what I wrote.
I’m asking for a coalition of likeminded nations to work together to topple oppressive regimes, ideally non-militarily, but militarily if necessary.
That’s what Iran needs and wants. Not whatever the fuck Israel and the US are doing. That’s wrong, and is going to end badly for everyone. On that I hope we can agree.
You’re being so unnecessarily abrasive and insulting.
I’ve witnessed too much horror at this point to care about the being civil with imperialist.
You’re totally misunderstanding or misrepresenting what I’m saying. This is a waste of time.
No, I’m just cutting through the euphemism and double standards. It’s only a waste of time because you hold your beliefs as a matter of faith and will never reexamine them.
I’m not your enemy.
Yes you are.
We both probably vote progressive.
So you don’t vote Democrat?
If you want to have a conversation take a step back and actually read what I wrote.
I read it. Read it well enough to understand what you were saying.
I’m asking for a coalition of likeminded nations to work together to topple oppressive regimes
So, Western imperialism. Because, let’s be honest, you sure as hell aren’t calling for a coalition of China, Russia, and India to common carpet bomb Germany. Or Sudan, Burkina Faso, and South Africa to bomb South Korea. You’re just talking about western countries and their vessels overthrowing anyone not bowing to control by billionaire pedophiles. Hell. You couldn’t even bring yourself for the overthrow of the most insane and evil country on the planet, Israel. Just “sanctions”
call it the UN and include everyone.
Except for the countries you want to overthrow, of course.
That’s what Iran needs and wants
Western chauvanists just love to tell other people what they want and need, all while reducing them to an undifferentiated hive mind with no diversity of thought themselves. You’re a white supremacist, with no interest in letting the untermensch speak make their own decisions.
Not whatever the fuck Israel and the US are doing on their own.
How is what the US and Israel are doing any different from what you propose?
That’s wrong, and it’s going to end badly for everyone. On that I hope we can agree.
No, because your only objection to it seems to be procedural: that they’re doing a sloppy job of it. You’ve already said that you want the Epstein coalition to act as world police.
Again, you’re assuming shit that isn’t true. I want China, Russia, and India to be as much part of global order as anyone else. I am literally wanting everyone to be subject to the same principle structure on the world stage. That is all.
If your argument is in practice it won’t work and the biggest powers will always circumvent the rules or shape right and wrong in their own image, so sorry but we’ll never get along, let’s fight wars forever… Well that may be reality, and the world we’re living in. That’s not the world I want.
I’m not American, and I vote for a party most Americans would consider far left, woke, etc. I want a world with open borders multiculturalism, universal human rights and welfare, universal education and healthcare, and so on.
How about you, Mr enemy.
InternetCitizen2How about you, Mr enemy. What does a better world look like to you, and how are the levers of power wielded?
They won’t answer that. Brain is a well known to be here to ragebait and pretend they care about topics, but not enough to actually act or do any discussion about actionable things.
Eyyy, you’re back to stalking me around because I pointed out you were doing genocide denial over a year ago
Fediverse is a small place. We are active. It happens that we come to the same spots every now and then.
Lol, yeah sure. You just happened to find yourself at the bottom of a three day old thread in com you don’t post in coincidentally immediately after interacting with me in a different com
What about it?
Diva (she/her)They’re also posting about you on meanwhileongrad
They love calling people privileged and online, when they are clearly a terminally online westerner who never engages in anything beyond voting and attacking straw men
Iran’s government needed toppling
by whom?
… that’s exactly what I meant. Did you… not read the rest of the comment? What did you think I meant by “the ends do not justify the means?” The means include who did it, and how. I am saying they are not justified.
I don’t see who you think should do be the one to do the toppling, it’s a sincere question
The Iranian people, ultimately. Even if they will need outside help achieving it, I believe it still needs to be led by them, it needs to be both be conducted in a way and ultimately result in something the Iranian people consent to, and it needs to be done in good faith, not transactionally, and preferably with substantial international consensus. I don’t think good faith was even in the same timezone with what is happening here, and any possibility of consensus is weak and almost entirely post-hoc. I think genuine criticism is deserved for why it hasn’t happened before now, and even for why this kind of intervention became necessary in the first place, and maybe this is a better state than it has previously been in, but again, those ends still do not justify the means. The means have been wrong before this, and the new means are also wrong. None of it is justified, and none of it will justify the current situation or any of the places the current situation is going. I am not going to give it a “pass” just because it might end up in a better situation.
Probably the same they do every time by working with the most violent groups so when shit goes down they end up with an even worse regime.
I am not an Iranian person, I don’t get to make proposals for them, nor do I want to. Go ask them. I won’t propose a right answer. I don’t know if there is one. But I can tell you with confidence that this answer is not right, and I am quite certain the Iranian people didn’t ask for what they’re equally certainly going to get.
Western chauvanists always treat non-western populations as an undifferentiated hive mind.
I think that’s a fair take if you mean that the Iranian people lead the revolution and outside help is only permitted if it works directly under the command of the iranian people. The reason people are so on edge about this is because there is a lot of US state dept propaganda about “liberating” the country, trodding out some opposition group regardless of popularity that is willing to work with the US regime. See for example VZ and machado as the latest example.
Iran’s government needed toppling,
Fun fact: The conservative religious state was formed when the US wouldn’t let go of proxy control of the country and it led to a revolution from US-hating hardliners and fundamentalists who overthrew the Shah and started a revolution in 1979. Whether or not the US’s installation of the Shah in the 50’s led to this outcome can be debated, but the fact is the US and Europe got really concerned that Iran was going to start managing their own oil and the oil around the region. (Iran was basically the center of the Middle East for a long time, and they could have easily risen to a first-world, progressive super-power if they had control over their own resources and elections.)
No, countries should not go around invading other countries to effect regime change, regardless of how evil the leadership of that country may be. Change must necessarily come from the people, not foreign interests acting first and foremost for themselves. Time and time again toppling regimes has been the justification used to engage in wanton death and destruction, all the while being a pretense for something else. Just no. It needs to fucking stop.
There will be no good from this… there’s no justification for killing thousands and thousands of innocent civilians.
This will be just like the Palestinian genocide.
There’s no plan other than bomb and kill.
While piece leads with depravity of school attack, and I’d add hospitals and leadership assassination, understand the geopolitics that the US is ruled by Israel first mandate, and Israel wants only destruction. Not a surrender and peace. Just as a nuclear deal with Iran would have entitled it to an opinion on Israel actions. Cruelty and illegality is the insurance to guarantee a unified angry Iran who’se only choice is to fight back. This is 100% the plan, and all idiocy of not understanding a plan is idiocy looking at the US to promote some humanist/liberal peace outcome instead of serving Israel’s demonism.
All US allies have their political capital and media as atlanticist/zionist supremacist propagandizers. As such, they are more likely to equivocate Iran’s self defense actions instead of strong condemnation of Zionist demonism, and threatening of rupturing of ties with Zionist allies to motivate a quick ceasefire. Waiting for Atlanticist/Zionist supremacist media to help sell demonism to the people of US colonies, is simply gaslighting concerns about demonic evil that will be applied to them all directly in the future.
while a specific demarcation line between human selfishness and demonism is fluid within personal conscience, most experts might agree that wanton mass murder and destruction for purposes of facilitating less opposition to future mass murder and destruction for wanton theft of the land of the murdered, can cross the lines of civilized human-considerate policy discussions, such that a demonic label is unanimously appropriate.
The kinds of atrocities you describe are violent imperialist and colonial policies. The word “demonic” is dehumanizing religious language used by nutjobs, bible-thumpers and MAGAts. It is especially problematic when used to describe a jewish institution (even if that institution is a genocidal apartheid state), due to the long tradition of antisemitism in Canada (we are both users at lemmy.ca I see) and the west in general.
Religious supremacism is used to justify the wanton murder and destruction to steal lands. Just because Zionaziism is a core tenet of some Jews, the orthodox reject the state as being agents of God/Judaism, and there are other jews who either respect the boundaries of civilization, oppose Zionism entirely, or focus on communal support. Nevermind, demonic Ashkenazi pig fuckers including themselves as semitic people to deflect from criticism of Zionaziism.
Property rights are foundation of civilization. Religious supremacism overriding foundational civilization principles must be labelled demonism. If there is a sentimental/religious value to land, then go ahead and buy or pray for it. That is only option consistent with humanism and civilization. Otherwise, why can’t I murder my neighbour and take his house while calling it God’s command to me? God telling me to do it last night, is not any less valid than using latin instead of greek translations of people who told history 4000 years before their time.
Normalizing Zionist supremacism with every lie their controlled media/politicians tell us is a core problem.