Mastodawn

https://delta.chat/fr/help

RaphM ⏚

En avantage non cité : delta chat ne lie pas votre compte à votre numéro de téléphone et peut donc fonctionner tout seul sur un ordinateur par exemple. C'est le plus inclusif il me semble 👍

Après je vois passer plein de messages à propos de xmpp et autres et que ça serait mieux... Quelqu'un veut bien m'expliquer ?

Pour moi la puissance de delta chat c'est d'être basé sur le protocole mail revu en tout chiffré + adapté pour la messagerie instantanée.

#deltachat

Delta Chat: FAQ

Qu’est-ce que Delta Chat ? Delta Chat is a reliable, decentralized and secure instant messaging app, available for mobile and desktop platforms. Instant creation of private chat profiles with secur...

Pour illustrer ça c'est la capture d'écran dans les paramètres de l'app à propos de mon utilisation du serveur sur lequel tourne mon compte delta chat. Et j'ai deux appareils en plus, avec un seul ça serait moindre (pour des raisons techniques).

J'ai plusieurs fils de discussion perso et des échanges dans des groupes dont un avec 283 membres... c'est du semi public sans modération donc 😅, et ça fonctionne bien finalement (groupe de com culturelle sur le territoire).

#deltachat

Edit : ce que je dis ci-dessous est faux, Signal aussi fonctionne en mode relay en fait de ce que j'ai compris. Ça c'est la taille de ma sauvegarde locale.

En comparaison ma sauvegarde signal fait presque 5 Go. Qui sont donc sur des serveurs amazon, microsoft, google d'après signal...

Edit : mais ce que je dis ci-dessous est vrai :)

Vivement que j'arrive à #quitsignal héhé

@raphm Les protocoles des emails ont été développés pour une version numérique du courrier, avec envoi et reception de texte et pièces jointes.
XMPP est un protocole développé pour répondre aux besoins et attentes des utilisateurs de messageries instantanées, avec l’ajout progressif de nouvelles fonctionnalités (appels audios, vidéos, modification ou suppression de messages, stories, flux, statut to connexion, etc.).

@Thibaut Merci !

Du coup il y a des apps de messageries qui fonctionnent actuellement avec xmpp je suppose ? Je n'en connais pas.

Et sur le même modèle ? serveurs décentralisés qui ne sont que des relays ingorants ?

@Thibaut

Ah ben je viens juste de trouver ton post suivant : https://mamot.fr/@Thibaut/116063671477509358

Mais du coup est-ce que le protocole est utilisé aujourd'hui dans un format "ouvert" (fédéré quoi). Parce que Whastapp utilise xmpp apparemment mais bon on est coincé dedans par exemple.

@raphm Cet exemple montre des entreprises qui utilisent XMPP mais qui ont fermé leurs solutions.
Pour du "vrai" XMPP, tu as de multiples clients, comme par exemple sur Android, Conversations et Monocles Chat (que j'utilise et qui est basé sur le premier), sur iOS Monal, sur Windows, Mac et Linux Gajim, sur navigateur internet ConverseJS, etc.

Matrix/Element (en hébergeant toi même ton serveur Matrix ?)

https://mastodon.social/@adbenitez/116160518995888537

@pemile matrix servers are way more expensive and also it has similar problems to XMPP with regards dependency on a server, with delta chat you are much more resilient and independent, read:

En quoi avec son propre serveur Matrix, delta chat serait plus résilient et indépendant ?

@pemile you can also host your own server for delta chat, but even if you host your own matrix server, you then have to host it forever or you will lose everything, with Delta Chat you have the liberty to even stop hosting your own if your economical situation changes and smoothly switch to another relay

besides that you can use your own + another 3rd party relay as backup if yours goes down due to technical problems so you don't have any emergency situation needing to fix

@raphm
@Thibaut

" you can also host your own server for delta chat "

Quels services ? SMTPD, POPD, IMAPD and ?

@pemile any email server would do, ex mail-in-a-box, Mox, Maddy, yunohost etc. but setting it up with this is much better:
https://github.com/chatmail/relay

GitHub - chatmail/relay: chatmail service deployment scripts and docs

chatmail service deployment scripts and docs . Contribute to chatmail/relay development by creating an account on GitHub.

GitHub

" any email server would do, "

Mais héberger son propre serveur SMTP n'est pas non plus une sinécure !

@pemile it is!!! I have done it and I was a self-hosting ignorant, never had bought a domain or VPS before, nor configured DNS records or even know what that was, yet I managed to do it with https://github.com/chatmail/relay/ it was literally only run a couple of commands, they provide a script that does everything for you

GitHub - chatmail/relay: chatmail service deployment scripts and docs

chatmail service deployment scripts and docs . Contribute to chatmail/relay development by creating an account on GitHub.

GitHub

" they provide a script that does everything for you "

Je préfère la philosophie de comprendre et de maîtriser ce que j'installe !

@pemile whatever makes your boat float buddy ⛵

Tu manques de talent pour vendre TON produit !

@pemile @raphm Une comparaison intéressante entre XMPP et Matrix ici : https://lukesmith.xyz/articles/matrix-vs-xmpp/

Why It's Bad to Have High GDP | Luke Smith

Sometimes the quality of life is directly inverse to "economic" indicators.

@Thibaut @pemile Merci !

@Thibaut @raphm

" Une comparaison intéressante entre XMPP et Matrix "

Bof, un gros parti pris et c'est quoi pour lui "The default Matrix server software " si "atrocious" ?

@Thibaut yet Delta Chat is much more resilient, it has multi-homing / multi-relay and easy migration from one server/relay to another, something that doesn't exist at all today in XMPP, which is more centralized than Delta Chat, once you choose a server in XMPP your profile and groups are bound to that server, the server dies you have to start a new profile and lose all your chats, groups, contacts messages etc.

with delta chat you keep everything, your profile lives in your pockets

@raphm

@adbenitez @raphm Deltachat is a very good concepty but more limited than XMPP due to being "only" able to offer messages and attachment. It can be sufficient for some users, but too limited for others.
Regarding the risk of losing the server, it is exactly the same as for an email server, and you can save your history too (via some clients, not all).
But I really do like Deltachat in any case.

@Thibaut
> but more limited than XMPP due to being "only" able to offer messages and attachment.

not really, Delta Chat is not limited to email, in fact it could even use XMPP in the future if really necessary, right now it already have p2p support for in-chat mini-apps and webrtc for calls

> it is exactly the same as for an email server

it seems you didn't understand, with delta chat you can rotate servers while keeping your profile and groups, this is not possible with xmpp today

@raphm

@Thibaut continuation:

and by keeping all data I don't mean as some backup you could read, but actually keep using your groups and chat with people while preserving chat history, and without your chat appearing as a new contact/chat for all of your contacts, which will be the case in XMPP

chatmail clients are in a whole different level when it comes to resilience&independence, and it will get even better, using several at the same time, if one fails it doesn't matter, zero downtime

@raphm

Rose Mar 2

@adbenitez @Thibaut @raphm I don't understand much but I use arcanechat, I find it little slow in sending messages. It takes around 5-10 seconds for my friend to get the text. Is this because we are on different relay or something?

@Rose I can't guess without any context, but for me it is instantaneous, it can be several reasons:

you are physically far away from the relay you are using

you are in a country that throttles the connection to the relay you are using (ex. Russia might do this to some popular relay)

the connection between your relay and the relay of the other peer is slow/far away

one of the relays is (temporarily?) overloaded

etc

Rose Mar 2

@adbenitez @raphm @Thibaut i'm using your relay and my friend is on testrun one.

@Rose maybe nine was temporarily slow due to overload or maintenance/backups

I just tested sending a message from arcanechat.me to nine.testrun.org, you can see that I receive the notification in the other account immediately after sending:

@adbenitez Ha, interesting! Either I forgot about the WebRTC calls or it was not yet implemented back when I tried it.
In any case, I would be curious to have more details on pros and cons of both email and XMPP protocols for instant messaging on the technical aspects of it.
For more "advanced" possibilities with XMPP, you might want to check Movim. Very nice project that tries to push to the edge of this protocol.
Btw, here is a nice comparison table: https://eylenburg.github.io/im_comparison.htm

Comparison of Instant Messengers

@Thibaut pros of XMPP:

- at the moment it supports big files while in DC it is not so easy to share anything bigger than ~25-30MB

- you can have groups with admin (possible to implement in DC)

cons of xmpp:

- groups are often unencrypted, it is a mess otherwise

- it is too easy to disable encryption in any chat

- not good multi-device experience

here you have some more cons:
https://fosstodon.org/@arcanechat/115963841644398921