SatansMaggotyCumFartThe question Joe Biden keeps asking: ‘You think we can actually come back from this?’
Yes it’s definitely Biden’s fault that Americans gave the republicans the house, senate and presidency.
TropicalDingdongFinally, you get it.
Yes it’s definitely not the people who voted for Trump or that decided not to vote at all.
You gave them the options between genocide and genocide. We told you that this would lose the election for the Democrats. You got the outcome you advocated for.
Genocides are horrible things that should never happen but too many people are using the word as critical-thought terminating cliches.
It’s like trying to talk to an anti-abortionist and the only thing they can do is call you a baby killer.
You have to decide if you wanted to win the election or not, and its never been clear to me that you ever actually wanted to win. What its always appeared to be, is that you wanted to mantain ideological control of the party (which you did do, and have continued to: the party is still pro-genocide).
But what is clear, is that the party could not win with the general election with a Democratic candidate supporting a genocide.
How many house and senate democrats support Israel and how many don’t?
Did you want to win the election or not? The only path to winning was to get Harris to change her stance on Gaza.
How many house and senate democrats support Israel and how many don’t?
Are you able to answer the question or are you dodging it because the answer doesn’t line up with the narrative you’re pushing?
Are you able to answer the question or are you dodging it because the answer doesn’t line up with the narrative you’re pushing?
They said, as they dodged the question.
Did you want to win the election or not?
The world now recognizes that the only path to winning was to get Harris to change her stance on Gaza. Do you?
I asked you a question and you dodged it.
Answer it and I’ll answer yours but there’s no reason to engage with you until you do.
Its not a relevant question. We’re talking about Harris and their campaign. I actually don’t give a shit if you answer me, because you live with your whole ass exposed. Its no secret you didn’t really give a shit about stopping Trump or you would have advocated that Harris change their policies.
I understand the world is a messy place with lots of shades of gray and that’s scary to people who want it to be in black and white and have it easy to tell what’s right and wrong as you do.
The question is relevant.
If you think its relevant you need to argue why.
If you’re refusing to answer it I won’t spend the time to continue this conversation with you.
This isn’t a train station fam. No need to announce your departure.
You and yours handed this country to fascism.
In another comment in this thread you just called me and I quote ‘a fascist and pro-genocide.’
There is not reason to continue this conversation with you until you can continue in a more civil fashion.
Lotta fucking responding for someone not continuing this conversation.
You are both a fascist and pro-genocide. You advocated for electoral strategies which conclusivly led to fascism. You spent the entirety of 2023/ 24 demanding Democratic voters support genocide. You’ll never escape from that.
The USA is a democracy; every one of us is responsible individually for what we do with our votes.
You, I infer, decided that the best thing to do with your vote was endorse the rapist who promised to do absolutely nothing to stop the genocide in Gaza over the candidate who at the least would have protested.
Which sure as fuck was your right, but it’s kinda weird that you’re trying to argue that this isn’t exactly what you voted for.
In a single-ballot plurality-wins-all election anything but a vote for the runner up is an endorsement of the eventual winner.
You’re trying to place blame on an individual instead of a party that encourages policies that creates voter disenfranchisement.
Why is critical analysis attacked?
You’re trying to place blame on an individual instead of a party that encourages policies that creates voter disenfranchisement.
No. I’m recognizing the actual system we have pointing out that anti-genocide non-voters made a deliberate choice.
This isn’t a disenfeanchisement issue so much as it is a disengagement problem. There citizens had the sane franchise as everyone else, and chose not to go vote against a rapist.
There’s plenty of blame to slap on the Democratic party from the former president and candidate all the way down. But Biden not standing by his purported morals and Harris not breaking with him when he didnt compel non-voters not to cast a vote. They’re adults and citizens and should either stand by their choice and argure that it was correct or else concede that they made a mistake and would change it if they could
IF you are going to make that argument, you also have to provide a mechanism which can change the minds or engage the millions of voters necessary for Harris to win, otherwise its irrelevant.
Harris could have changed her policy to win the election. She’s a single individual, in the exact position of power to do precisely this.
If you can’t offer a credible mechanism for changing the minds of 6 million plus voters on the issue of genocide over the course of approximately 4 months (July/August 24 to November 24), you must cede that the only path to Harris winning was to change their policy.
This is what I hear when people blame the voter: “Instead of the candidate changing their stance, millions of voters should instead change their stances!”
Snot FlickermanBut the system we vote for isn’t responsible for enforcing laws like… *checks notes… putting 34 time felons in prison, preventing insurrectionists for running for office, and letting people who commit treason of stealing and selling state secrets to the highest bidder run for office? It’s all our fault huh? The system didn’t fail us first, huh?
pelespiritWe told you that this would…
Who’s “we”?
gestures vaguely at all the independent media coverage from 2023-2024
So you didn’t vote for Harris and you’re part of the Independent media?
I’m torn. Do you think what you are doing is more like the ‘Tu quoque’ fallacy or more of a ‘red herring’?
‘Tu quoque’ would be like, because we think you did thing X, your argument about A or B is invalid.
‘red herring’ would be like, instead of engaging the actual claim (that the campaign lost for strategic reasons), you’re trying to drag the conversation onto something about personal preference, which doesn’t answer the strategy argument at all.
Or it could just be an appeal to hypocrisy / circumstantial ad hominem, where you’re implying I don’t have standing to make the argument (or that my argument should be discounted) because of what you assume about my personal behavior.
Any which way, it doesn’t do anything to detract from my claims.
You said basically, “We told you so!” and I wanted to know who the “we” was. You said the “we” was independent media. So from that, I took it that you are included in the independent media. You’re also complaining about Harris a lot, so that lead me to believe that you didn’t vote for her as well. It could be that you voted for her, but you can see why others didn’t, that’s why I’m asking. I’m not pulling anything, just trying to see where you’re coming from and if you’re an American.
You said basically, “We told you so!” and I wanted to know who the “we” was.
The perspective that Biden/ Harris needed to shift her position on Gaza, and as we approached November 24, that they needed to shift this position to win the election was in practically every political comment for almost 2 years before the election, and not just on Lemmy. Youtube, reddit, instagram, and especially tiktok; wherever you went on the internet, this argument was being made, consistently and regularly, on political content.
This was especially true for more left-ish media, where almost all of the Democratic or leftist aligned media, recognized and covered the tragedy which was Israels genocide in Gaza much more extensively than other media. If you were a potential Democratic voter, you were assuredly far more exposed to the recognition that there was a genocide in Gaza, that it needed to be stopped, that the administration wasn’t doing anything to stop it, and that neither the Biden nor Harris campaign made even the slighted overture that they would stop it in a future administration.
“We” is anyone, commenter or content creator (or journalist, if you aren’t into the whole brevity thing). People were ringing the bell that if Biden/ Harris, and later Harris/ Walz didn’t change their positions on the genocide in Gaza, they would lose the election. I consider myself to be a part of that contingent.
You’re also complaining about Harris a lot
As long as people continue to blame voters for something that was a controllable mistake on the part of Harris, which was well known and well communicated for being a mistake at the time it was being made. Its important to keep bringing the focus back to the only party with sufficient agency to have made a different choice.
Only Harris had the agency, as an individual, to make a different choice to change the outcome of the election. It was clear they were losing the election by continuing to support Israel over Palestine. My comment history is right there. I was full blown coconut-pilled as soon as Biden stepped down. And as it became clear that Harris wasn’t going to take the opportunity to shift on Gaza, it was urgency to move the candidate became paramount. It was obvious that the Democrats would lose the election on the issue of Gaza as early as November of 2023.
Whether you or I personally did or didn’t do is beside the point. I’m making a claim about how incentives and strategic choices produced an outcome, and that claim stands or falls on the evidence about the system, the candidates, the actual election that happened, not on any individual’s behavior. When you make it about individual behavior, your whole ass is showing. You are trying to distract from actually valuable conversation about what it would have taken to win the 2024 election for Democrats.
that they needed to shift this position to win the election was in practically every political comment for almost 2 years before the election, and not just on Lemmy. Youtube, reddit, instagram, and especially tiktok; wherever you went on the internet, this argument was being made, consistently and regularly, on political content.
The argument was made in social media areas that are tailored specifically for you. This is going to sound snarky, but I sincerely don’t mean it that way. Even a 5 years ago, algorithms were tailoring your feeds.
For me personally, trump was a huge threat and he’s turning out to be worse than I imagined. I wasn’t seeing any Gaza stuff, because I kind of thought we would be more concerned about not having nazis in the white house.
The argument was made in social media areas that are tailored specifically for you. This is going to sound snarky, but I sincerely don’t mean it that way. Even a 5 years ago, algorithms were tailoring your feeds.
Clearly one of the two of us had the correct ability to take in and process information to develop the understanding that with Harris’ position on Gaza, they were going to lose the election. You didn’t see it as a priority or a major component of their electability. I did. So you got this wrong. And that signal was clear as early as November of 23, when it was clear that Israel was going to conduct a campaign of extermination. Like you said, you didn’t think this was a priority.
If you saw getting Harris as elected as being the top priority for stopping fascism, and missed this critical signal, you might consider that it is you yourself who is living in a social media blinkered reality. It sounds like you missed the most important signal of the election. And like, come on. We know this isn’t true. We know how much you were on lemmy at that time. We can go read your comments and posts from November 23 to November 24. I know you saw the signal. Its not that you didn’t see the signal, its that you chose to ignore it.
And that signal wasn’t only present journalism and social media. It was also present in polling data. Biden had been drowning among Democrats on the issue of Gaza for the end of 23/ 24. And beyond polling data, but there were quite literally political movement who got these data into election results. Did you miss the entire “undecided” movement? And I know you didn’t. You are a politics and news junky. You see and read everything.
You weren’t seeing any Gaza stuff? And you think that makes you a more responsible form of voter?? There was an international genocide case and regular reporting about domestic political groups lobbying Biden/the campaign/DNC to acknowledge it.
Also, you were literally here. Where Gaza material and it’s threat to the election were being posted about.
DevolutionGod that argument is so disengenuous. It basically comes to “cater to us a vocal minority or we won’t play.”
You leftists scream about the genocide but what exactly did you accomish? Smugness? Superiority? I haven’t heard a single leftist give a shit about South Sudan or Myanmar. Leftists are quiet when it comes to Ukraine. But you’re incredibly loud about Gaza… you know, the crater where a people used to live because the crap candidate didn’t capitulate to your demands.
Well now everything is fucked, the US has zero creditability, our allies hate us, ICE is officially the Gestapo, and concentration camps are being built.
But hey. Continue the tired ass line about “well we should have had a candidate who was against the genocide.”
Fun fact. Historically, when fascists take control, the first ones they try to stamp out is leftists.
But at least you can sleep at night now knowing that because you didn’t vote for genocide, you now allowed one to be completed with impunity.
Well done tankies.
You leftists scream about the genocide but what exactly did you accomish?
What did you reactionary centrists accomplish? You handed us Trump. We gave you the path to winning and you chose not to take it. Its on you.
Well now everything is fucked, the US has zero creditability, our allies hate us, ICE is officially the Gestapo, and concentration camps are being built.
Yeah, your fucking fault dude.
But hey. Continue the tired ass line about “well we should have had a candidate who was against the genocide.”
You couldn’t win the election otherwise. Did you actually want to win the election or not? Because it follows that if you defended the candidate while they held an unelectable policy position, you were doing the work to get Trump elected.
Leftists rarely show up anyways. But hey. Continue to shift the blame. Whining and doing nothing is what you do best.
I’m not shifting the blame. I’ve always blamed fake “centrists” (read: reactionary rightwing voters who wear a blue hat) for losing the election. Its your fault.
Did you want to win the election or not? Because there was a path to doing so: The candidate needed to change their policy on Gaza.
ClassStruggleWe show up, we just don’t vote for POS parties
So you don’t show up. Got it.
Didnt show up for you, that’s what you are upset about. Liberals hate leftists because we refuse to drag ourselves to the right with you, you want the confirmation that what you are doing is right and we won’t give it to you, because what you are doing is wrong
Leftists rarely show up anyways.
Source your evidence liar
Not my burden. Show yours that they do.
Its interesting how “we told you this would lose” equates to "you will lose because you alienate leftists.
The reality is voter apathy and a majority of the population choosing not to vote because they see no difference between the outcome regardless of who wins.
Democrats will do the same shit to appease Their donor bosses, they just feel a little bit of shame about the means they think justify those ends. Thats why youll never hear libs talking about somthing like abolishing ice, only better training them so they have less collateral damage.
The people who don’t see a difference are fucking morons. Biden never invaded any US cities.
Obama was the one who started building some of the camps both biden and trump use to imprison migrants. Tell that to all the people whos relatives they deported.
This is what i mean by no i differnce in outcome, because yeah sure the dems are more sly about it, they dont “invade” cities, they let the state governments handle delpoying cops against protests, but they still fund the same agencies with the same agendas, they just have more competency about how to do it without making as much noise.
Yes, dude the majority of American voters are morons dude. The people in this thread you are arguing against are not the same group, we are trying to advocate how to engage that moronic majority.
Advocate for policies that impact their life. Spending billions on Isreal, to fund their genocide or not, instead of domestically is a huge issue that people care about. Pointing out the genocide was pointing to the way the wind was blowing for public support.
ml is full of people who were advocating not voting because Harris wouldn’t condemn Israel loudly enough. Yes, it would be great to focus on improving the lives of Americans but there’s zero chance of that while republicans have a trifecta. Democrats can at least be pressured into doing the right thing sometimes.
Your comment reads like you think I’m a DNC strategist or something. I can’t directly control their messaging, but I can try to point out to people that by the time November comes around there are only two possible outcomes and having a hissy fit about Gaza is only going to make the world a worse place and that “I can’t vote for genocide” just helped the guy who is gleefully embracing all the genocides.
.ml thinks Russia is liberating Ukraine they don’t mind that genocide.
True, but they like to complain about it. If Harris had pledged to defend Gaza they would have just found some other excuse.
No, that would have made all the difference in the world, Harris would have won.
I doubt it.
They were looking for any excuse to not vote for her. The fact that the wedge issue they picked is still worse off under Trump is evidence they never really cared about it in the first place. If they actually cared about Gaza, voting for Harris as the imperfect but better and more readily influenced candidate would have been the right answer.
If she had said the right words on Gaza they would have moved to not being good enough on trans rights or something.
They were looking for any excuse to not vote for her. The fact that the wedge issue they picked is still worse off under Trump is evidence they never really cared about it in the first place. If they actually cared about Gaza, voting for Harris as the imperfect but better and more readily influenced candidate would have been the right answer.
Cool narrative, provide evidence leftists by and large don’t actually care about Palestinians or it is just that, an abstract narrative.
Stop lazily gesturing towards a stereotype of someone to avoid engaging with them.
It’s not any more of a stereotype then making claims about centrists.
So by your logic you are admitting you have no evidence of the massive claim you just made?
No you can look at the results of any vote in modern times and see that democrats are either the most popular party or the second most.
That’s substantial evidence.
That’s substantial evidence.
That leftwing people tend to vote in the general for a Democrat even when they despise the candidate?
Just read through the replies to this post and see all the people who have said the exact opposite of your statement.
My piefed client voyager pit is reply in a different place than the website browser so I feel the need to reply to this again.
.ml thinks Ukrainians are nazis and are actively cheering for Russia’s genocide of them.
This is clear if you spend any time on .ml’s instance.
No I don’t think you’re an operative, but what I see (not just from you but plenty of people in online discourse) is excusing the actions of the Democratic party solely because Trump is bad.
The point that I will continue to shout from the top of the mountains, is that lesser evilism as a political strategy only enables fascism. We cannot counter its rise and current prevalence by just being slightly better. It takes bold impactful direction on how to improve people’s lives to energize and engage the population.
The average voter doesn’t care if a leader gleefully embraces genocide or just tactically enables genocide to fuel the military industrial complex. The outcome of wasted tax dollars to kill children is still the same.
“Well at least democrats aren’t killing Americans” inevitably is the next step of justification. But here’s the thing, democrats don’t use their opportunities to de-miltarize domestic law enforcement. They are responsible for co-opting and killing 2020 BLM demands. They are responsible for folding during the 2025 government shut down and fully funding ICE.
We deserve better. It’s okay to say so. It’s necessary for us to demand it. You and I are not ideological enemies (I would hope).