What are your views on salvation?
Eg - what is required to be saved? Is it solely faith - saying something like the Sinner’s Prayer and “giving your heart to Jesus”? Or do works/sacraments matter? Or is there universal reconciliation? What about those who die in ignorance of Jesus and don’t get the opportunity?
100% works. The faith bit only matters because if you truly have faith, works come naturally. But “professing” faith without acting on it is just self-righteous posturing.
Ignorance isn’t a problem if you live by the principles Jesus put forward, it’s not like he invented them and they’re not really mysterious. Love your neighbor as yourself, help people who are struggling, and you’re good.
The faith bit only matters because if you truly have faith, works come naturally.
That’s really interesting, because this is one of the things Luther said to justify his “faith only” position - that if you start with the faith the works must follow.
Do you think most go to Heaven/are saved? Are you affiliated with a mainstream church?
That didn’t answer either question, and just creates more.
Why are earthly human developments an argument for the nature of God? Why would the label of “pushover” apply or matter to a supreme being? Why the assumption that punishment is just? Do you think a king who punishes broadly and severely for minor offenses is a good king?
You seem to have confused justice for vengeance. Humans certainly have an appetite for vengeance, that can’t be denied. But how does vengeance right wrongs?
Romans 12:19
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
Eh, I’ve got problems with Paul.
But even then, the verse suggests it’s not our place to dispense justice. Nor do I think that divine justice would be recognizable to humans.
Eh, I’ve got problems with Paul.
This community is centred on Christianity, which accepts the Bible as the universally infallible scripture. Paul wrote a good portion of it. So dismissing Paul, who was personally chosen and appointed by Jesus on the road to Damascus, doesn’t work in a Christianity-centred discourse.
The only reason people who may linger within Christian circles do reject the authority of Paul from what I can tell is just because their carnal desires go against what he writes. Such a thing is called eisegesis - only reading the Bible through your cultural lens first and letting your culture hold authority over the Bible. Eisegesis has no place in Christian discourse.
Christianity, which accepts the Bible as the universally infallible scripture.
How do you figure? Books have been added and removed for millennia.
Your own sect is not the arbiter of the entirety of the faith. Plenty of sects would disagree with what you’ve written here.
How do you figure? Books have been added and removed for millennia.
That’s just demonstrably false, or a massive misrepresentation at best.
The 27-book canon of the New Testament (and the wider 66 book canon of the Bible) which contain the writings of Saint Paul that I was citing is accepted by every Christian denomination. They have never been under dispute as part of the canon and was solidified, done and dusted by the end of the fourth century (despite us having plenty of evidence of those books being used by the start). While it is true some denominations may have additional books, as well as additional creeds and other important texts, rulings or councils, they all can agree on these 66 books.
Your own sect is not the arbiter of the entirety of the faith. Plenty of sects would disagree with what you’ve written here.
Like what sects? The Nicene Creed (typically this is used as the measuring point between Christianity and heretical spinoff religions) states:
He will return in Glory to judge both the living and the dead, and His Kingdom will have no end.
And even then if you went into the other religions that identify as Christian - such as Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, or Christadelphians - they all also hold to the doctrine of there being a Judgement. Heck, this doctrine even made it’s way into Islam!
Sure, different denominations and different religions have different views on what exactly will happen on this judgement day or how exactly it’ll play out, but the fact of the matter is, it is a fact of Christianity that there will be a Judgement, and that carrying out Justice is one of God’s characteristics.
The 27-book canon of the New Testament (and the wider 66 book canon of the Bible) which contain the writings of Saint Paul that I was citing is accepted by every Christian denomination.
The Nicene Creed (typically this is used as the measuring point between Christianity and heretical spinoff religions)
This is circular reasoning.
Ultimately this comes down to how you define a “Christian”: adherents to the message of Christ, or adherents to some sect of the structure erected around the figure of Christ? I think the former is far more important than the latter, you seem to believe the opposite.
Nonetheless, it’s foolish to assume that we humans can comprehend divine justice or judgement. There’s no reason to believe divine justice is based on punishment.
Nothing of what I said is circular reasoning. Some Buddhists observe some Jesus’ teachings. Generally secular western society observes Jesus’ teachings due to culture. Doesn’t mean everyone who loves their neighbour is a Christian.
In the same logic, I can claim to be a Muslim because Muslim means “one who submits (to God)”. If I were to go into an islamic forum, claim to be a Muslim and then say “I don’t follow the Qur’an” - I wouldn’t have an expectation of them to take me seriously.
Also, Jesus Christ literally built His Church and commanded Sacraments. He also taught about Hell and Judgement. He taught submission to the Scriptures and cited Scriptures Himself.
Jesus commanded this ““sect”” exist and that’s what this Lemmy community is focused on.
I’m not trying to warn you or anything, discussion like this of course is allowed provided it’s respectful and not misleading, you’re being respectful and I very much thank you for that, but just to back up this point about the community and nothing more:
Rule #1.1. The measure for what is considered Christian, as has been the case in the faith since the earliest days, will be the faith proclaimed in the Nicene Creed.
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