What are your views on salvation?
Eg - what is required to be saved? Is it solely faith - saying something like the Sinner’s Prayer and “giving your heart to Jesus”? Or do works/sacraments matter? Or is there universal reconciliation? What about those who die in ignorance of Jesus and don’t get the opportunity?
100% works. The faith bit only matters because if you truly have faith, works come naturally. But “professing” faith without acting on it is just self-righteous posturing.
Ignorance isn’t a problem if you live by the principles Jesus put forward, it’s not like he invented them and they’re not really mysterious. Love your neighbor as yourself, help people who are struggling, and you’re good.
The faith bit only matters because if you truly have faith, works come naturally.
That’s really interesting, because this is one of the things Luther said to justify his “faith only” position - that if you start with the faith the works must follow.
Do you think most go to Heaven/are saved? Are you affiliated with a mainstream church?
Jesus was an example. He showed us what we could be, how we could treat each other. His death was a willing sacrifice, showing us the power of compassion, courage, and conviction. We are saved by emulating those qualities, by practicing compassion even when it comes as a personal cost.
I don’t get behind the get-out-of-hell free interpretation. Jesus didn’t die to give a sweetheart deal to sinners, he died to show the power of turning away from sin.
That didn’t answer either question, and just creates more.
Why are earthly human developments an argument for the nature of God? Why would the label of “pushover” apply or matter to a supreme being? Why the assumption that punishment is just? Do you think a king who punishes broadly and severely for minor offenses is a good king?
You seem to have confused justice for vengeance. Humans certainly have an appetite for vengeance, that can’t be denied. But how does vengeance right wrongs?
Romans 12:19
Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
Eh, I’ve got problems with Paul.
But even then, the verse suggests it’s not our place to dispense justice. Nor do I think that divine justice would be recognizable to humans.
Eh, I’ve got problems with Paul.
This community is centred on Christianity, which accepts the Bible as the universally infallible scripture. Paul wrote a good portion of it. So dismissing Paul, who was personally chosen and appointed by Jesus on the road to Damascus, doesn’t work in a Christianity-centred discourse.
The only reason people who may linger within Christian circles do reject the authority of Paul from what I can tell is just because their carnal desires go against what he writes. Such a thing is called eisegesis - only reading the Bible through your cultural lens first and letting your culture hold authority over the Bible. Eisegesis has no place in Christian discourse.
Christianity, which accepts the Bible as the universally infallible scripture.
How do you figure? Books have been added and removed for millennia.
Your own sect is not the arbiter of the entirety of the faith. Plenty of sects would disagree with what you’ve written here.
How do you figure? Books have been added and removed for millennia.
That’s just demonstrably false, or a massive misrepresentation at best.
The 27-book canon of the New Testament (and the wider 66 book canon of the Bible) which contain the writings of Saint Paul that I was citing is accepted by every Christian denomination. They have never been under dispute as part of the canon and was solidified, done and dusted by the end of the fourth century (despite us having plenty of evidence of those books being used by the start). While it is true some denominations may have additional books, as well as additional creeds and other important texts, rulings or councils, they all can agree on these 66 books.
Your own sect is not the arbiter of the entirety of the faith. Plenty of sects would disagree with what you’ve written here.
Like what sects? The Nicene Creed (typically this is used as the measuring point between Christianity and heretical spinoff religions) states:
He will return in Glory to judge both the living and the dead, and His Kingdom will have no end.
And even then if you went into the other religions that identify as Christian - such as Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, or Christadelphians - they all also hold to the doctrine of there being a Judgement. Heck, this doctrine even made it’s way into Islam!
Sure, different denominations and different religions have different views on what exactly will happen on this judgement day or how exactly it’ll play out, but the fact of the matter is, it is a fact of Christianity that there will be a Judgement, and that carrying out Justice is one of God’s characteristics.
The 27-book canon of the New Testament (and the wider 66 book canon of the Bible) which contain the writings of Saint Paul that I was citing is accepted by every Christian denomination.
The Nicene Creed (typically this is used as the measuring point between Christianity and heretical spinoff religions)
This is circular reasoning.
Ultimately this comes down to how you define a “Christian”: adherents to the message of Christ, or adherents to some sect of the structure erected around the figure of Christ? I think the former is far more important than the latter, you seem to believe the opposite.
Nonetheless, it’s foolish to assume that we humans can comprehend divine justice or judgement. There’s no reason to believe divine justice is based on punishment.
Nothing of what I said is circular reasoning. Some Buddhists observe some Jesus’ teachings. Generally secular western society observes Jesus’ teachings due to culture. Doesn’t mean everyone who loves their neighbour is a Christian.
In the same logic, I can claim to be a Muslim because Muslim means “one who submits (to God)”. If I were to go into an islamic forum, claim to be a Muslim and then say “I don’t follow the Qur’an” - I wouldn’t have an expectation of them to take me seriously.
Also, Jesus Christ literally built His Church and commanded Sacraments. He also taught about Hell and Judgement. He taught submission to the Scriptures and cited Scriptures Himself.
Jesus commanded this ““sect”” exist and that’s what this Lemmy community is focused on.
I’m not trying to warn you or anything, discussion like this of course is allowed provided it’s respectful and not misleading, you’re being respectful and I very much thank you for that, but just to back up this point about the community and nothing more:
Rule #1.1. The measure for what is considered Christian, as has been the case in the faith since the earliest days, will be the faith proclaimed in the Nicene Creed.
No. It isn’t like that. It is light vs. darkness, not good vs. evil. To the extent one can rise into the light, which is non-observance of dark impulses, they ascend.
There is no ‘judgment’ as such. When people become admiring of the material darkness, they become enmeshed.
When someone realizes the material darkness is a fully-inclusive tour of meaninglessness, and that the light, the Kingdom of Gos, lies within them, then they naturally journey toward the light.
And love to pur friends, the birds, who are constantly emburdening themselves with a selfless symbol of freedom (though we don’t ultimately have to live as they must).
The seekers of the Light find and recieve that. The seekers of material gifts either find or die wanting that, and thus continue in darkness.
It’s interesting because Hindus believe in a reincarnation which is contiguous, where one life begins, or picks up, basically where the other one left off; you have the same passion, drives, fascination, interests, tendencies, etc. While it is a trope in Christianity that certain people take their salvation for granted, Hindus often forgo deeper inquiry (which presumably leads to the ultimate goal) thinking they will do that in their next life, and seek for material happiness and the help from their devas to accomplish that in this one.
In either case, people go where their heart truly longs. Knowing this woeld is one of darkness and misery, the carrot is dangled such that people continue to chase it, whereas the Supreme rests beyond suffering—‘within’—which is nebulous and not as interesting for people, who see God as either a vending machine, or a genie in a bottle.
By the Grace of God essentially. Someone who has truly received God’s Grace through Faith, will display good works, attend Church, receive the Sacraments, etc. A Christian who truly believes won’t need to worry about if they’re going to heaven or not.
Those who die in ignorance - I don’t really think it is entirely possible in this day and age to die in ignorance and not get the opportunity. Those who seek after God will be led by the spirit to find Him. Some even reckon that ShangDi’ism and Tengri’ism were proto Christians in some sense, who were guided purely by the Holy Spirit to reach the conclusion they could reach within physical means. But now, it is entirely simple for someone to hear about Jesus and become a Christian via the internet - and I’ve observed it happening, even people secretly converting in Muslim households
No offense by any of the following:
By the Grace of God essentially. Someone who has truly received God’s Grace through Faith, will display good works, attend Church, receive the Sacraments, etc
This sounds Protestant - the Luther I’ve read is exactly like this.
A Christian who truly believes won’t need to worry about if they’re going to heaven or not.
There’s gotta be a way to impart this lesson in a way to doesn’t impact lead to bad mental health loops. Some people struggle with OCD or similar disorders and get stuck on the idea that their salvation “didn’t stick.”
Those who die in ignorance - I don’t really think it is entirely possible in this day and age to die in ignorance and not get the opportunity.
I taught world history in a public high school in Bible Belt, which makes the news every few years because of a very public school prayer or the state trying to mandate the Ten Commandments in classroom, and I had a student who had no idea who Jesus was or what Christianity was. I explained the concept of communion to a college student who had even attended a Christian church before today.
ShangDi’ism
What do you think of the Chinese rites controversy?
This is Christian belief commonly found in Protestantism. I think works based salvation is worse for mental health loops- you always feel as if you’re not “doing enough”. Christianity offers comfort in the certainty of your salvation.
had no idea sho Jesus was or Christianity was
Yet you taught them- they found out. If God desires for someone to be saved, they could find out, even from someone like you sparking it. If they are even of the elect, this could have been the first step, and the Holy Spirit could have been working through you.
Chinese rites controversy
Ancestor worship is immoral, it’s contrary to Christian doctrine. However I have no problem with using the term 上帝 to refer to God in Chinese. Turkish Christians generally use Tanrı which has similar parallel origins.
andros_rex
agamemnonymous
Flax
Jarrett