Yukari Hafner 

So it looks like the #sbcl project is getting sloppified. Very, very saddening to see. It feels like something is slipping through my fingers, so I thought I should say something publicly.

Evidently Christophe is not interested in shutting this crap down, and when I read his email about it, I pretty much gave up on saying something myself. His stance is hopelessly naïve, and this is only being shown now.

As soon as you get these idiots a gap, they'll wedge it open, and it's already happened.

Feb 26 at 2:15pmWeb
Show threadYukari Hafner Feb 26

I very sourly remember my own attempt at contributing to sbcl and getting shut down by Christophe, so I don't really care to get myself involved again -- I don't have the energy to be confrontational about it.

If course can be reversed on this, that would be very nice, but I neither have the "project clout" nor the mind to get into a bunch of fights and make myself even less popular to try and steer this ship into a more reasonable direction again.

For now, I guess a preliminary RIP to #sbcl.

Show threadYukari Hafner Feb 27

I would like to amend: while my experience on the mailing list wasn't great, I have a lot of respect for Christophe and I've always enjoyed all the interactions we've had in person or on IRC.

To clarify my stance a little bit better (and I apologise for not doing so earlier already): I was a bit taken aback by the (in my reading) very lax and hands-off response in his initial mailing list response to the new patches. I thought he would take a stronger stance, which he has now done (fantastic!)

Show threadYukari Hafner Feb 27

My unpleasant past experience on the mailing list was meant to explain why I don't really want to get involved in the current discussion: I don't believe I have enough "say" in the matter, and in general I'm very sensitive and extremely bad at dealing with confrontations.

I'm sure someone with a bit more social stamina than me could have overcome that initial conflict in my submission attempt, and similarly handled the current discussion with grace.

Show threadYukari Hafner Feb 27
Anyway, basically:
- Christophe is good people
- I was surprised by his first email
- He has made a much better email now
- I am a coward and a baby
Show threadChristine Lemmer-WebberFeb 26
@shinmera What a sad thing to hear, both SBCL being slop'ified and also your experiences :(
Show threadKirtai 🏳️‍⚧️Feb 26
@shinmera
Oh noes! 
Show threadAndreasDavourFeb 26
@shinmera wait? What? What is this thing?
Show threadYukari Hafner Feb 26

@AndreasDavour See the mailing list for recent discussions about this. Basically:

The new windows/arm64 backend that released recently was made with LLMs
More LLM contributions are being discussed, like for coroutines/fibres

Show threadAndreasDavourFeb 26
@shinmera thanks for the summary. Sad.
Show threadλzydFeb 26
@shinmera @AndreasDavour Oh god, even more LLM patches eh. This is kind of killing my CL motivation.
Show threadMason Loring BlissFeb 26

@shinmera A good discussion:

https://yap.zyd.lol/@zyd/statuses/01KHQHWEPRHD7REXK6D7WNA1RW

Ten points if you identify the LLM (or LLM booster? Hard to tell the difference) contributing to the thread.

Post by zyd, @[email protected]

@[email protected] I first posted about this earlier in the day and then shared it among Lisp programmers in the discord and on IRC. I emailed Stas, as…

yap.zyd.lol
Show threadλzydFeb 26

@mason @shinmera

In that post I had said:

All that the say, I don't think this is a sign of SBCL leadership/maintainers adopting a pro-LLM stance but a one-off rogue contribution.

Well, now I'm thinking I was wrong. If you're not prominently anti-LLM, you in effect become pro-LLM by encouragement. So this turns into an intent/reality debate.

Rethinking some of what I said in that thread. Definitely scratch out the whole "this is probably a one-time thing" line lmao.

Show threadMason Loring BlissFeb 26
@zyd @shinmera We cannot have nice things.
Show threadλzydFeb 26
@shinmera I can only hope both Stas' and Christophe's positions come back to bite them in their ass when they get more slop patches that have them do even more work like the arm64 windows one.
Show threadHayley Feb 26
@shinmera but I have not considered the qUaLiTy of the incredibly heisenbug-prone code
Show threadHayley Feb 26
@shinmera seriously I don't trust anything short of overthinking it yourself, because I myself managed to land a bug which took two weeks to trigger using my own programs as stress tests
Show threadHayley Feb 27
@shinmera there's at least two inaccuracies in this message https://sourceforge.net/p/sbcl/mailman/message/59301540/ (it's definitely still UB to peek at one field given a reference to another, and you can definitely build SBCL on -O0) but I don't feel like maintaining my own SBCL fork
[Sbcl-devel] [PATCH] use memcmp in page_extensible_p for well-defined type+gen comparison | Steel Bank Common Lisp

Show thread𝕹𝖞𝖝 妛彁  :labrys-45-sickle:  Feb 27
@shinmera damn this is really shaping up to be the year where every single thing gets worse every day