return2ozmaScoop: Dems working on secret report found Gaza cost Harris votes
TropicalDingdongThe report: everything we were screaming into the void from 2023 till 2024.
The report is moot other than the fact they trying to bury it because anyone with two twigs to run together knows the answer, knew it before it happened, knew it while it was happening, and knows it now.
Trump was easily beatable in 2024 and Dems blew it at every turn.
You want to see the roadmap for beating Trump?
Sort c/politics by controversial and read the top five threads of comments.
It’s all there in black and white, in no uncertain terms. And the shitlibs who insisted we take the worst strategy turns possible (and advocating for them in those threads)…they mostly jumped ship (santanko and squid being notable examples).
It’s also worth nothing how many voices who go their analysis at the time basically correct at the time it would have mattered, how many of them are banned from politics as a whole. There was a clear moderation effort made to cultivate a specific type of conversation here.
LemmyBruceLeeMarvinIf genocide isn’t a red line then there are no red lines, every lib that voted for blue no matter who should be in the Hague along with the rest of the murderers
Man… how many bricks to the side of y’all’s head do we have to take to get you to understand that a) an election isn’t about individual choice, and b) telling people what to do with their votes is counter productive.
If you were doing in 2023/24 what you are doing now, with that comment: Your why fascism won.
Saying something over and over doesn’t mean its true.
That said, I hate both the DNC and the non-voters. I can do both. If free will exists, then I can blame both. (I mean I don’t believe in free will, but on an emotional level fuck both anyway, I don’t owe either of them shit.)
Saying something over and over doesn’t mean its true.
Denying reality over and over again doesn’t make you right and the perspective you are espousing was the dominant narrative up until the elective. That individually voters just needed to “do better”. You want to blame voters; you need them to win elections. You blamed them for failure before the contest was even run and they didn’t show up for you. Now what? How does your analysis change their minds into showing up?
What you are doing is the same thing petroleum companies did around recycling in the 90s. By believing this is some negotiation of individual choice, you are obscuring the fact that the Democrats structurally undermined their own ability to stop fascism. Blaming the individual is why fascism won.
You want to blame voters; you need them to win elections. Explain to me how you plan on getting back the 6% of Democratic voters you lost using your approach?
I don’t need to win shit anymore. I don’t care, its obviously a fool’s errand to give a shit. The 2024 US election taught me that. All worrying about politics does it hurt me.
You blamed them for failure before the contest was even run and they didn’t show up for you. Now what? How does your analysis change their minds into showing up?
All that’s left is rot, so I’m going to pick through the garbage and hope to find some gems before we all drown in shit. My analysis is just based on brutal reality. They did not show up “for themselves” as well. Its not just me they’ve hurt. Leopards are eating faces, and not all the owners of those faces are “shitlibs” and MAGA, some of them are protestors who didn’t vote.
There is no means for me to change people’s minds on voting so you don’t need worry about me trying. I just want people to understand that the very virtue obsessed moral framework they are using to make their decision to not vote has hurt them. Its doomed them. I want them to feel bad about it because in so far that someone can deserve to feel bad about it, they definitely should.
What you are doing is the same thing petroleum companies did around recycling in the 90s. By believing this is some negotiation of individual choice, you are obscuring the fact that the Democrats structurally undermined their own ability to stop fascism. Blaming the individual is why fascism won.
No its not. In a purely rational sense, I don’t really blame anyone. Free will doesn’t actually exist.
But within the context of people I can like, dislike, or hate as the emotional creature that I am: I definitely can fucking loathe multiple groups at the same time and feel catharsis at their suffering.
I think you are still operating under the delusion that this second Trump term is something we will escape from, but the thing is, bad times don’t create good times. They create more bad times. We are in the gravity well of a metaphorical political and environmental black hole, and you are in denial.
The dems will win in 2028, and it wont matter much, other than we’ll get some sweet painkillers as we pass into oblivion. Because the GOP will win in 2032. Or society will completely collapse. Or the globe will roast all of our food and we’ll all starve. There are not much in the way of good things to look forward to.
I don’t need to win shit anymore. I don’t care,
Great. Then just keep it all to yourself then. All bottled up deep inside so you don’t hand the fascists another victory.
Great. Then just keep it all to yourself then.
No lol, eat shit, scumbag.
All bottled up deep inside so you don’t hand the fascists another victory.
Still insistent on the delusions I see.
No lol, eat shit, scumbag.
You don’t deserve charity. You objectively supported fascism with your actions. And now youre saying you don’t care enough to stop it.
I already tried to stop it. You continuously reframing this like I’m a DNC cheerleader is actually pathetic.
Your proposition that I continue means rewarding people like yourself, who actually is at least in part responsible for this.
That said, now I’m curious. What exactly would you expect someone like myself to do now to stop the fascism you enabled? Do I owe you?
You need to do the work to undo the Fascism you enabled. Simple as. Make it clear in this next election cycle that no oro ice, pro genocide candidates get your vote. And it’s not because you individually won’t vote for them. Your individual vote doesn’t matter. Neither does mine.
What matters is the 6% left on the table by Harris being pro genocide. We’ve got to to get them back which means you have to do the work of cleaning out the cynicism you injected into the system by insisting people vote or genocide.
You have work to do.
Voting for Harris wasn’t voting for genocide, because it ultimately did not matter if the GOP won or if the Dems won in terms of what happened to the Palestinians.
In fact, letting Trump win probably made it worse for the Palestinians.
I voted to save immigrants from what’s happening now to them. I voted to protect the poor from the GOP’s austerity. I voted to prevent an even more conservative SCOTUS. I voted for the tiny hope of fixing women’s bodily autonomy and healthcare in this country. I voted to prevent the death cult evangelicals and white supremacists from gaining more power in our government.
My co-worker has family in Mexico that shes terrified for because this admin’s moronic and destructive actions of killing El Mencho have put them directly in danger and will do zero to help with drug related deaths.
I know trans people who literally want to flee this country and can’t because of the gender on their fucking passport.
My mom is worried about being able to vote because she did not change her fucking last name back to her maiden name when she divorced my piece of shit republican father and now there is legislation meant to suppress her vote.
I voted to try and prevent all of this. FUCK YOU, YOU STUPID PIECE OF SHIT. YOU’RE A FUCKING WORTHLESS IMBECILE. You are not my ally. You enabled this misery, and I hate you for it. I despise you at the very core of my being.
Voting for Harris, when Harris couldn’t get elected on her policies, wasn’t a vote to stop this. That’s what you need to get through your head. Harris handed back 6% of Democratic voters to the couch. That’s just self evident. She lost the election.
If you weren’t advocating that she move her policy positions to more popular positions within the base, you weren’t doing the thing you want to imagine yourself as having been doing.
History isn’t going to remember you as the good guy if you were telling people to suck it up and vote Harris: because no amount to telling people to suck it up and vote Harris was going to get her elected. There was precisely one path to get her elected: get her to change her position on Gaza.
She was objectively pro Israel and in her own Democrat way, pro genocide. She would not win the election with that position (again, self evident). If you were not advocating that she changed her position, and making it clear that she would lose the election if she didn’t, in that critical time period from August till November, you weren’t doing what you want to write yourself into history as having had done.
Go far enough, there wont be historians.
What you need to get through your head is that the group of people actively advocating for the abstaining of voting is why 6% did not vote for the lesser evil. At the same level of blame that the DNC lick’s Israel’s boots. And the 6% itself deserves this outcome, because we have FIRST PAST THE POST.
We did not have a primary. We should have. That’s a failure of the DNC and Biden as well.
So, given that I understand that the DNC as villains. That Israel are villains. MAGA are obviously all villains. Where does this leave left leaning independents and potential dem voters?
Each potential voter had a simple moral calculus in front of them:
Potential dem voters who did #1 are not the bad guys. #2 made an explicit choice and are scum, just like MAGA. Just like the DNC. Just like Biden.
This isn’t to say the every person who fits into category #1 is blameless: if they advocated for centrists or were pro-israel, yeah, they fit into the same as the DNC category. But the vast majority of the people who fit into category #1 did not do that. You suggesting such is incredible delusion.
the group of people actively advocating for the abstaining of voting is why 6% did not vote for the lesser evil.
Schrödinger anti-genocide caucus. Simultaneously capable of with-holding their vote and changing the entire course of an election and yet also not a meaningful enough of a group of voters to be worth changing your policy positions for. If this caucus was sooo important, why didn’t the campaign change their positions?
You are demonstrating a fundamental misunderstanding how elections work, how they function. Effectively, you are subject in the same kind of propaganda that the petroleum industry used to convince consumers that individual actions, specifically recycling, plastics was going to save the world. This is a bad faith approach because it shifts the responsibility for the outcomes or consequences of elections from those who actually have power in the system, like parties, political campaigns, and candidates, to those who effectively have the least power in the system: voters. That perspective you hold, is the result of a long effort on the parties to dismiss the responsibility they hold for actually appealing to voters and their demands.
The reality was that voters were extremely dissatisfied with the Biden administration. This is something mainstream media told people not to believe their lying eyes about throughout 2023 and 2024, about how good the Biden economy was. About how people were just imagining the struggles they were experiencing, those were just things they were imagining. This is couple with the fact that the Democratic administration continued to support a genocide throughout. When asked what Harris would do differently, she said "nothing would fundamentally change*. No one spoke for her in those words. She said this.
What you are doing, by blaming voters for the failure of a political campaign to meet the moment: Its precisely what allowed the campaign to fail. Your advocacy that its “on the voters” to vote for the ‘lessor evil’, it creates the permission structure that allowed the campaign to maintain positions that would result in them losing the election. And I want to be clear, in the build up to the election, your perspective, that voters needed to just vote for the lessor evil instead of the campaign change.
And we have the reciepts. Telling voters they’ll just need to vote for the lessor evil won’t work. You won’t win an election that way. The idea that you can blame or shame voters into doing what you want doesn’t work. That is now established fact. We’ve run the experiment, multiple times now, and we’ve got the results. Creating the permission structure such that campaigns know they don’t need to respond to voters: this is what allows campaigns to maintain un-electable positions.
If this caucus was sooo important, why didn’t the campaign change their positions?
Because the DNC would rather lose than not lick Israel’s boots. I already FUCKING KNOW THIS. JFNIOAFN UIA. AHGHAIGMIOSAEN.
How dense can you be? Are you trying to give me a stroke? Please do because I want to become simple. The alcohol isn’t working fast enough.
Also the “Schrödingers anti-genocide caucus” arguement can go either way. Its a 2 way street. If you don’t think abstaining will influence the results of the election, why would you bother trying to use that to influence the DNC? If you think it does influence the results of an election, it means you acknowledge that you are increasing the risk of a fascist victory.
critique about placing some blame on voters
Do you believe in free will? Agency? Autonomy?
And we have the receipts. Telling voters they’ll just need to vote for the lessor evil won’t work. You won’t win an election that way. The idea that you can blame or shame voters into doing what you want doesn’t work. That is now established fact. We’ve run the experiment, multiple times now, and we’ve got the results. Creating the permission structure such that campaigns know they don’t need to respond to voters: this is what allows campaigns to maintain un-electable positions.
I’m blaming and shaming now because it doesn’t matter. I know I can’t blame and shame you into voting the way I want. I never tried to do that in 2024. I knew that before the election. I’m doing it now because even if the system itself is bad, the people within it have purposefully allowed it to get worse. Their motivations for why vary, but the result of their actions is the same. On an emotional level, I simply hate them.
I can be disgusted by multiple groups at the same time.
But ok, lets engage in your point: You know how voters could have, in our admittedly terrible election system, influence the democratic party’s candidates? Voting in the fucking primaries. I wish the DNC had bothered to run one this time in 2024, but you know, they offered what they offered because Biden was an egotistical old fuckhead. Still better than fascism.
But you know dems did run primaries in 2016 and 2020, as much as I preferred Sanders over both HRC and Biden… Sanders lost the primary. Because not enough people who supported Sanders voted in the primary. And the first time this happened in 2016, people who supported Sanders (even ones that did not fucking vote for him in the primary) decided not to vote in the general because he lost the primary and we got Trump Round 1. FUCK THOSE PEOPLE.
The only reason Biden barely skated by was because of how bad things had gotten under Trump by 2020. If people weren’t fucking morons, it would have been a blow out in both scenarios in favor of democrats, regardless of the candidate.
We already agree: the Democratic party fucked up electorally but multiple things can be true at the same time. You seem to think voters are blameless.
I’m blaming and shaming now because it doesn’t matter. I know I can’t blame and shame you into voting the way I want.
To be clear, we’re not talking about what you or I would do. You’re also assuming that because I’m focusing my criticism on those in power who could have made different choices that I myself made some choice you don’t agree with. What you or I did individually as far as voting is concerned is immaterial. We’re not in power. And as an aside, if I scratch a penny, will I also find you doing this in 2023/24, when it did matter?
If you want to blame voters, you need to offer a mechanism to move them. I know how we can move individual politicians and campaigns because we’ve done it before. I don’t think we disagree about that. But there is no credible mechanism for changing the inarticulate mass which is the “electorate” to adopt your perspective that they should have just voted to support genocide. There is no tool which performs that operation. You can’t move voters in this manner. A single voter is a grain of sand. It behaves like a solid, like a tiny rock. A mass of voters is a river of sand. They have fundamentally different properties.
Play the following thought experiment out for me. Its August 2024. I’m putting you in charge of the Harris campaign. The campaign had just selected Tim Walz as VP before we put you in charge. You’ve got 1.5 billion dollars to spend, and a week of captured media going into the convention. You have three months.
The experiment (0, 1) is conducted by you answering each the following questions follows:
0 You are not allowed to change the candidates policy positions. Explain how you would use 1.5 billion dollars and 3 months to win an election.
1 You are allowed to change the candidates policy positions. Explain how you would use 1.5 billion dollars and 3 months to win an election.
I’ve done a terrible job maybe of explaining what happened to me mentally and my current motivations. I don’t care about whether I could have changed people’s vote or whether I could motivate them to vote at all. That isn’t where we meaningfully disagree I think.
Before November 2024, I thought most people were OK. I wanted good things to happen because I thought most people deserve good things. I understood that there was a portion of people who were terrible pieces of shit, but that they were a minority. That people permitted Trump to win the first time both because they understandably (if a little stupidly) thought “give him a chance” or “things will hold together” or even “yeah no chance he wins anyway I’m staying home.”
After Trump won again though, this illusion was completely shattered. I realized that I was surrounded by far more awful and petulantly stupid people than I could have imagined. And my desire for good things for most people has almost completely evaporated. I feel a pure existential and near suicidal dread. I feel devastatingly alone and there is no escape. I’m surrounded by troglodytes.
And I can’t delude myself out of it. I wish I could. This account represents me lashing out and screaming into the void.