Ludic 🧛Feb 21

Reposting a question for Ed Zitron, I'll forward responses. He asked on Bluesky and will get sub-Mastodon-tier answers:

"This is a serious question and I would be delighted if I only hear great things but, software engineers: both before and after LLMs, how often in your professional lives have you run into software engineers that seem completely useless or lacking in basic knowledge? I hope the answer is rarely"

Show threadDrikanisFeb 21

@ludicity For the record, I work at a software company that employs ~10k developers.

Before LLMs, I'd encounter such engineers a couple of times a month, but I interact with a lot of engineers, specifically the ones that need help or are new at the company or industry at large, so it's a selected sample. Even the most inexperienced ones are willing and able to learn with some guidance.

After LLMs, there's been a significant uptick, and these new ones are grossly incompetent, incurious, impatient, and behave like addicts if their supply of tokens is at all interrupted. If they run out of prompt credits, its an emergency because they claim they can't do any work at all. They can't even explain the architecture of what they are making anymore, and can't even file tickets or send emails without an LLM writing it for them, and they certainly lack in any kind of reading comprehension.

It's bleak and depressing, and makes me want to quit the industry altogether.

Show threadJulien Avérous – 🇫🇷🇪🇺🇺🇦Feb 21
@drikanis @ludicity Similar experience here. More and more people cannot function without an LLM prompt ready to answer to them, they totally lost any autonomy. If you ask anything to them, they will basically give you the output of their LLM, instead of formulating an answer by themselves, even when they know the answer. It’s pure cocaine.
Show threadChris GreenFeb 21
@javerous @drikanis @ludicity The same thing happened with the web years ago.. programmers who claim to be fluent in a language or algorithms who are completely unable to program without constant googling for even basic stuff.
Show threadJordiFeb 22
@aachrisg @javerous @drikanis @ludicity not the same. Using a search engine is basically having optimized documentation. I learnt the trade ‘fighting’ with the old ‘wall of paper’ of DEC orange binders with VAX/VMS documentation. Being able to search for them was a blessing.
Show threadJyrgen N
@jguillaumes @aachrisg @javerous @drikanis @ludicity Back in the day, working with VAX/VMS I mostly wrote software that had little OS dependencies, portable C code using the C standard libraries, so I didn't need the Red Wall (and later the Grey Wall) much. But the online HELP system was indispensable. (1/3)
Feb 22 at 4:50pmWeb
Show threadJyrgen NFeb 22
Today, I mostly use a web search to find the documentation I know (e.g. Python libraries), but not by heart. (Yes, I am looking at you, datetime!) That is a time saver, but I could have that documentation locally just as well. Sometimes a StackOverflow answer is helpful, too. But I still know what I am doing, I promise! (2/3)
Show threadJyrgen NFeb 22

For me, documentation on the web has effectively replaced books — printed language/system manuals anyway, and StackOverflow has also taken the place of books like e.g. Tom Christiansen’s excellent Perl Cookbock. But I don't know if there is a really good online replacement for textbooks like W. R. Stevens’s excellent TCP/IP Illustrated or Advanced Programming in the UNIX Environment.

(I have lots of that stuff. Any takers in Berlin?) (3/3)

Show threadJordiFeb 22
@jyrgenn @aachrisg @javerous @drikanis @ludicity did you use LSE? (Language sensitive editor) At that time it looked like magic.
Show threadChris GreenFeb 22
@jguillaumes @jyrgenn @javerous @drikanis @ludicity TECO! (I was using paper terminals, mainly a Silent 700).
Show threadJordiFeb 22
@aachrisg @jyrgenn @javerous @drikanis @ludicity wow, THAT’s hardcore!
Show threadJyrgen NFeb 22
@aachrisg @jguillaumes @javerous @drikanis @ludicity Unter VMS I invoked TECO once. IIRC it needed the PDP-11 compatibility mode, and the VAX 8650 I worked with was the last model to offer that. Couldn't make much of it, though.
Show threadJordiFeb 22
@jyrgenn @aachrisg @javerous @drikanis @ludicity now I have something like six simh emulated VAXen running in a couple of raspberries at home. And also a there PDP-11s and Kl10 mainframes. And THIS is incredible
Show threadJyrgen NFeb 22
@jguillaumes @aachrisg @javerous @drikanis @ludicity Recently I tried out the current version of OpenVMS under community license. Turned out (a) my knowledge of VMS as a system has never been that great as I was only a developer, without any sysadmin aspirations; (b) without TCP/IP or *any* networking included in the license it isn't much fun, really. Never learned anything of the other DEC systems except RSX-11 (I think) on a Pro 350, but with DCL.
Show threadMonospace MentorFeb 24
@jguillaumes How did you solve the OpenVMS on VAX licensing (missing) problem?
Show threadJordiFeb 24

@monospace do you mean after HP killed the hobbyist license?

There are… ways… to get around that. I won’t comment it in the open. Let’s say the PAK generation was cracked loooong ago.

Show threadJordiFeb 24
@monospace oh, and before VSI sends the cops for me, I inherited some PAKS when my company decommissioned the VAXen. I also have two small uVAX machines I boot from time to time.
Show threadMonospace MentorFeb 24
@jguillaumes I see. No more questions. 😆
Show threadMonospace MentorFeb 24

@jguillaumes I did this years ago, and would love to revisit the topic.

https://youtu.be/BMegrNgJQLo?si=-FV28bq7g0tk66Fm

VAX on, VAX off - we're installing OpenVMS!

YouTube
Show threadJordiFeb 24

@monospace hmmmm…

There is a little program around which allows PAKs to be GENerated. It’s written in .c, and all of it is in lowercase.

Show threadChris GreenFeb 22
@jyrgenn @jguillaumes @javerous @drikanis @ludicity I first used it under rsts/e on a pdp-11/70 so when I got access to a vax 780 I stuck with it.
Show threadJyrgen NFeb 22
@aachrisg @jguillaumes @javerous @drikanis @ludicity Have to admit I missed that era. I got my first student job end of '87 where a research group had got their big honking 8650 the year before. When I left three years later, everything was dominated by workstations of the 680x0 or SPARC type, and after another few years I could have got the 8650 and related stuff for the cost of hauling it away.
Show threadJyrgen NFeb 22

@jguillaumes @aachrisg @javerous @drikanis @ludicity Nope, EDT first, then EVE, later Emacs (yes, on VMS at the time), and Emacs *is* magic.

I think LSE was part of some software development tools package, together with a make-like program, a version control system, and some testing tool IIRC. As I would likely have been the only one to use it, my boss didn't want to shell out the rather significant money for it. (1/3)

Show threadJyrgen NFeb 22
I haven’t been working with VMS for over 35 years now. But today it is still Emacs, or vi, as the use case suggests it. I switch between both a lot. (2/3)
Show threadJyrgen NFeb 22
I was amazed by the parallels of the EDT vs. EVE and vi vs. Emacs duality — both EDT and EVE are not quite as far from each other as their Unix counterparts, but the characteristics of the duality is the same in both. One, small and lean, somewhat basic but with clever solutions that support a full-time use of it, the other very sophisticated, more extensively configurable, extensible, and much bigger, intended to remain running all the time. (3/3)
Show threadJordiFeb 22

@jyrgenn @aachrisg @javerous @drikanis @ludicity yup, first it was called VAXset after DECset. I pestered my bosses until I got a license.

Their static code analiser was also incredible for the time.

Show threadJyrgen NFeb 24
@jguillaumes @aachrisg @javerous @drikanis @ludicity Right, that was it.