Dare ObasanjoAmericans really got bored with free trade, the best and brightest in the world wanting to come here, low corruption and childhood diseases like measles being eradicated.
I guess things are definitely less boring now. Worse, but also less boring.
Jeff Atwood@carnage4life so there were no problems in America to address? This system was working well for all Americans? https://infosec.exchange/@codinghorror/116098902726924703
@codinghorror Are things better now? 🙃
@carnage4life and a highly polarized two party system is the worst form of democracy, so… https://infosec.exchange/@codinghorror/116104218445674780
Tim Bray@codinghorror @carnage4life You do *not* have a polarized two-party system. You have one boring middle:of-the-spectrum party and a corrupt lying cheating fascist-adjacent ultra-extremist party. The problem is unipolar.
@codinghorror @carnage4life I forgot to mention racist and misogynist.
@timbray @carnage4life I agree but scholars disagree with you on this point (that we don't have a wildly polarized two party system). That's .. demonstrably untrue. Email me for all the citations. They are in my timeline, too. Either way. Doesn't matter.
@codinghorror @carnage4life I guess the problem is the word "polarized" - the etymology is straightforward from "polar" as in "polar" opposites", and thus the word has the strong connotation that the poles are unreasonable and truth is somewhere in the middle. When you're talking about current US politics, that’s actively misleading and dangerous. I think anyone wanting to argue seriously about the current scene should really stop using "polarized" and "polarization".
@timbray @carnage4life yes, I mean in terms of extremes us vs them, either you are with us or I have sworn a blood oath against all of your kind, etc. It’s palpable here and disturbing
@codinghorror @carnage4life OK, but you talk about "us" and "them" as if they're equivalent forces, and they’re just not. The problem is that one of the factions is insane. It is that specifically that is causing the breakdown of conversation, not some generalized bipolar extremism.
@timbray @carnage4life hard, HARD DISAGREE; the incentives are all aligned to create this dynamic for maximum "if it bleeds, it leads" competitive tension, especially here in the USA. In fact, the problem is N=2. N>2 means you can form coalitions and there's more than "us and them" to choose from. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Us_and_Them_(song)
@timbray @carnage4life this is a very narrow bandwidth channel, suggest switching to higher bandwidth for this topic, which is complex
"The lyrics of the song were written by Waters. They describe the senseless nature of war and the ignorance of modern-day humans who have been taken over by consumerism and materialism. In an interview, Waters shared the significance of each verse:
The first verse is about going to war, how on the front line we don't get much chance to communicate with one another because someone else has decided that we shouldn't. The second verse is about civil liberties, racism and colour prejudice. The last verse is about passing a tramp in the street and not helping."
@timbray @carnage4life us. and them. That's the problem, and you know it.
@timbray @carnage4life "I'm tired, boss."
Luke Kanies@codinghorror @timbray @carnage4life it is definitely a problem that we have a two party system.
But… the problem right now is that one of our parties is actively trying to (and succeeding in) destroying our country.
To describe that as a “polarization” problem is naive at best, and complicit at worst.
@lkanies @timbray @carnage4life and how do we fix that without n>2 to form coalitions? Simply bet on the "other" party, which is also beholden to Citizens United and infinite money in politics, which no other country in the world allows? Please explain. Please explain in detail, step by step. I want to understand.
@lkanies @timbray @carnage4life pass an amendment? NOT POSSIBLE. NOT. POSSIBLE. https://infosec.exchange/@codinghorror/116056668112430977
@lkanies @timbray @carnage4life "Scholars refer to this as 'constitutional calcification.' The U.S. has the hardest constitution to amend in the democratic world." but yeah, the other party. Explain this to me. Explain it to me, please. Right here, right now, step by step.
@lkanies @timbray @carnage4life are y'all really this naive? I apologize, but I honestly don't get it. Explain yourselves. Step by step. Here. Now. Do it.
@lkanies @timbray @carnage4life and meanwhile the US is the largest exporter of blood money in the world. That's a fact, jack. Look it up. https://infosec.exchange/@codinghorror/116098902726924703
GarretSidzaka@lkanies @[email protected] @carnage4life none of you could explain this. Therefore, there is no way to explain it. Correct me if I am wrong, and I would LOVE to be wrong about this.
@codinghorror @carnage4life honestly your responses left me despairing of the ability to actually have a discussion. It’s not that I can’t explain it, it’s that I am unconvinced it was worth trying.
I am absolutely convinced we will never get a functioning country again without a constitutional convention that essentially rebuilds our constitution.
But… right now I just want people to stop shooting us and actively destroying everything. That has to happen before we can do anything else, imo.
@codinghorror @carnage4life also pretty unlikely I’m going to respond to a thread that says calls me naive and is generally bombastic and demanding
@codinghorror @timbray @carnage4life correctly labeling the problem is orthogonal to solving it.
Honestly I do not know how to solve the current problem, much less the larger problem you are pointing to.
I don’t see how we ever return to being a functional country without some kind of constitutional convention where we make some deep changes. I expect most of us know the main ones (all focused on making the country more democratic and representative).
Is that possible? How do we make it happen?
I dunno.
@lkanies @timbray @carnage4life I do. Force the constitutional convention. Liberal SCOTUS judges should all have already resigned, but again, dearth of bravery here in the land of the free.
@lkanies @timbray @carnage4life also seriously, the pedantic nature of being "correct" in polarization, what are you guys, Merriam-Webster? You're definitely doing nothing to address the actual problem, so if that's your goal, GREAT WORK GUYS
Timothy Swan@codinghorror @lkanies @timbray @carnage4life I don’t see how giving total control of the Supreme Court to Trump would help at all.
Nick Sloan@timswan @codinghorror @lkanies @timbray @carnage4life Yeah, citations are definitely needed on that. Justice Jackson has been doing the country and history a service by calling out the rot from the inside.
@nick @timswan @lkanies @[email protected] @carnage4life we need more than one country, is what I'm saying. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Is it clear now? Let me know how I can be a better communicator. Please.
@codinghorror @timswan @lkanies @carnage4life Honestly, I found this whole thread hard to follow. I agree with your assessment that disrupting the two party system is crucial for the long term health of the country, but I don’t understand how a constitutional convention fits into that idea, especially with an authoritarian in charge right now. Maybe I missed it in some branch of the thread but I don’t see where the discussion about splitting up the country came in.
@nick @timswan @lkanies @carnage4life increasingly I see no other paths forward. I am direly worried about scotus, and the cone of uncertainty keeps narrowing.
@nick @timswan @lkanies @carnage4life again. Legacy code base of democracy kind of sucking right now. And it’s fossilized. Impossible to change through amendments. Everything about this is a worst case scenario for democracies. I can elaborate if you want to talk to me. Email me if you would like to. Or not. Fine either way.
@codinghorror @lkanies @timbray @carnage4life I don’t see the connection between the judges resigning and the constitutional convention.
I also don’t know where you get the confidence that we’d do better via constitutional convention right now with a blatant authoritarian in the presidency and the richest people in the world devoting their resources to his service.
Larry Garfield@codinghorror @lkanies @timbray @carnage4life It's called #RankedChoiceVoting
:-) That a prerequisite to breaking the duopoly.
You're technically correct that "half the country hates the other half and vice versa" is killing us. But Tim is also correct that it's because one of those half have gone full fascist and the other, well, hasn't.
Fixing polarization won't stop fascism. And stopping fascism won't fix polarization. We need to address both.
Very Human Robot@codinghorror @timbray @carnage4life
Yet we can't seem to actually implement simple approval voting.
Such a simple change, with such obvious, democratic outcomes.
Alan Hunter@timbray @codinghorror @carnage4life This is a great point and I agree. The problem we face is more similar to the paradox of tolerance, on one side are tolerant people and on the other are intolerant people. is this polarization?, I feel if it was both sides would be intolerant of each other which is not the case. One side is intolerant and the other side is dealing with the paradox of tolerance (i.e. should you tolerate intolerant people?).