Shreyas ZareFeb 20
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦

Web developers: we are going to go out of our way to hide the scrollbars!

Users: but that makes it difficult to know how much of the text is left to read!

Web developers: don't worry, we'll add a non-standard UI element that signals this in some non-obvious, weird way!

Feb 20 at 2:28pmWeb
Show threadbituur esztreymFeb 20
@rysiek
yes.. we want scrollbars back! leave scrollbars alone!
Show threadEggs now in different baskets.Feb 21

@bituur_esztreym @rysiek And CONSISTENT bloody scrollbars in terms of both function and appearance!

The browser sorts out the scrollbars on the basis of the preferences set by the user in the OS GUI.

Show threadCassandrichFeb 20
@rysiek Spicy take: "Web developers" should not be a thing. You don't have any reason to "develop" for the web. The whole point was to factor things so that the browser and the server software were the only things that needed "development" and this development is reused by everyone. The actual documents you're publishing need writing/markup, not "development".
Show threadRotkäppchenFeb 20
@dalias @rysiek
Well, there are legitimate reasons to develop applications running in the browser engine (portability as the main one).
The problem is article sites pushing advertisement bullshit into everything, and you can‘t really do that if the user just enables Reader Mode. So, make your document tree useless for everything but proprietary CSS and JS.
A web dev should just be someone developing applications for the browser engines, like iOS devs for iPhone apps.
Show threadMarc 🐷🌏Feb 20

@libewa @dalias @rysiek
Imho the web should have stayed a gateway to information, not for serving cloud apps.

#localfirst

Show threadRotkäppchenFeb 20
@marc_eu @dalias @rysiek
But the janky web apps some companies write are at least sandboxed. To put it in the words of a friend „I‘d rather trust Mozilla than my bank to write safe code.“
Show threadCassandrichFeb 20
@libewa @rysiek The problem there is that vast, vast majority of "applications" on the web never should have been applications.
Show threadRotkäppchenFeb 20
@dalias @rysiek
Yes. But, to take one of my projects: a live departure viewer. Not enough for a native app, too much for a one-time GET.
Show threadCassandrichFeb 20

@libewa @rysiek Yeah but that's a document that can be complete in the moment as served, with some minimal js to make it an active document that updates elements of the DOM.

It does not need to be an "application" that bypasses the whole document model and implements its own UI.

Show threadRotkäppchenFeb 20
@dalias @rysiek
Ok, yes. *That* is despicable.
Show threadCassandrichFeb 20

@libewa @rysiek Prior to React, even stuff like Facebook followed the document model, where the document is semantic and the AJAX stuff just updates the semantic document.

React is what ruined the web with the despicable ideological position that the primacy of the document model is a bad thing and that you're supposed to write everything as an "application" that "renders" to the DOM.

Show threadSpark Purcell (they/them)Feb 20
@dalias @libewa @rysiek as always, the adtech industry is to blame. (the reason the "modern" web sucks)
Show threadMichał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦Feb 21

@ailurocrat @dalias @libewa partially, yes. But there were scores of web developers that should have known better, and yet helped implement this.

This is also on them.

Show threadLisPiFeb 21
@dalias @libewa @rysiek It can even be a static HTML document in an <iframe> with a user-customizable (with a request with a form field) refresh timer enabled by <meta> tags.
<meta> http-equiv attribute - HTML | MDN

The http-equiv attribute of the <meta> element allows you to provide processing instructions for the browser as if the response that returned the document included certain HTTP headers. The metadata is document-level metadata that applies to the whole page.

MDN Web Docs
Show threadLisPiFeb 21
@libewa @dalias @rysiek > Not enough for a native app

Why not? I've seen similarly-sized "Apps for GNOME", they love small programs for every little thing.
Show threadLisPiFeb 21

@libewa @dalias @rysiek Java and Common Lisp are two better examples of how to solve the portability problem.

(Portable bytecode and runs-from-source, respectively, for native programs. Of course Common Lisp (and Interlisp) also did bytecode before Java but nevermind that, bytecode is old.)

Show threadLucasFeb 20
@rysiek It's funny because web developers also justify using tiny npm dependencies with "not reinventing the wheel" 🫠
Show threadTrammell HudsonFeb 20
@rysiek pages are now florps. progress bar goes sideways.
Show threadMichał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦Feb 20
@th I'd say most of web development has been going sideways for a decade or so
Show threadMoses IzumiFeb 20
@rysiek @th
All jokes aside: would a "Javascript Abolitionist" movement be a noble endeavour, or would it just become a smokescreen/trojan horse for an even worse language?
(don't know much about WebAssembly's perks and pitfalls)
Show threadMoses IzumiFeb 20
@rysiek @th
(for the record, my only webdev experience is pasting W3Schools' "responsive CSS" template into Komposer/BlueGriffon and figuring out the rest of the process as the need arose)
Show threadjayFeb 20
@rysiek It also makes it very difficult to scroll 😩
Show threadDelta SierraFeb 20

@rysiek Special venom in my heart for the progress bars that hang out at the top of the page, because every time I scroll down that progress bar moves and the movement pulls my eyes off the text and back to the top of the page.

0/10 UX would strike with an axe.

Show threadGustavoFeb 20
@rysiek do you believe that I considered adding scrollbars to a slides presentation interface I'm developing? I just didn't do that because it would look too distracting (well, at least depending on the implementation, I can still look into that)
Show threadjohndugginsFeb 20
@rysiek That's the secret, Cap. I only implement infinite scrolling.
Show threadMichał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦Feb 21
@johnduggins "hail Hydra"?
Show threadAllan Svelmøe HansenFeb 20
@rysiek well I still see double scroll at times still, so that can give some balance 😆
Show threadRay McCarthyFeb 20
@rysiek
GUI developers of Android, Windows since 7 (esp 10 & 11), & especially browsers (Mozilla has lost plot) are total abusive morons.
Using Mate with customised theme based on Server 2003, customised Thunderbird (fairly sane) and customised Firefox (has scrollbars but barely sane).
Also the active Tab should connect to active document. Are these folk deliberately trying to confuse & reduce productivity?
Text too grey & background too grey. No wonder people going back to DOS / Blackboard.
Show threadLastOfThemFeb 20
@rysiek we'll get to it as soon as we re-implement all basic form functionality in JavaScript.
Show threadMistake not ...Feb 21
@rysiek I mean I literally did that to my emacs my alfernative is line numbers and a fraction of current line vs. total # lines. But I see how the difference is me deciding to walk barefoot and someone stealing all your shoes.
Show threadArtyom BologovFeb 21
@rysiek yeah, pretty much https://aartaka.me/scrollbar.html
I Want My Scrollbar Back (A 2-Minute Read)

The modern web is empowered by dynamic content loading. The modern reading is impoverished by it.

Artyom Bologov
Show threadcraignicolFeb 21
@rysiek the page starts in dark mode, and as you read it slowly fades to white mode, as if you're approaching the end of the tunnel.
Show threadlabbatt50Feb 26

@rysiek

F*** You Web developers.