Mastodawn

@quixoticgeek
This is nonsense.

Similar idiotic nonsense when motorcycle helmets, safety belts or masking (campaigns in 1940s about coughs and sneezes).

MJ Ray

@raymaccarthy @quixoticgeek please compare the standards, testing and observed effects of those other things with the current weak "short standing fall onto flat or straight kerb" cycle helmets before assuming the opposition is similar. If car seatbelts were allowed to be ineffective in most collisions, would they have been compelled as widely? Why are cycle helmets no longer tested for hitting even a corner kerb?

@mjr @quixoticgeek
Where are they not tested?

No doubt standards vary worldwide.

Perhaps campaigning for better helmets than none for cycles, ebikes, escooter and skateboards.

Some eBikes are more powerful than 49cc Mopeds were when motorcycle helmets became mandatory in UK. They should need a licence and insurance & real helmet, just like mopeds do in Ireland and UK.

I bought an ebike and gave it away. Too dangerous! Most people I know have worn cycle helmets for decades.
Ban escooters.

@raymaccarthy @mjr the problem with that idea is that any helmet that actually offers meaningful protection would essentially be a motorbike helmet. At which point cyclists would all over heat in the summer (motorcyclists don't exert the same level as a pedal cyclist).

Cycling helmets are tested to the equivalent of a 20kph impact. Anyone going faster isn't protected.

@quixoticgeek @mjr
Anyone going faster than 20km?
That's not safe for ordinary people.

I was suggesting eBikes that are really electric versions of Mopeds should have insurance, licence and real helmet.

Many mopeds when helmet laws cam in in UK were LESS powerful than some ebikes. Some were less than 1.3kW

MJ Ray Feb 5

@raymaccarthy @quixoticgeek UK e-bikes are 0.25kW!

@mjr @quixoticgeek
In theory!

MJ Ray Feb 5

@raymaccarthy @quixoticgeek Well, yes, but we can't sensibly discuss laws as if they'll have much effect on people who already ignore existing laws. Most people ignoring the power limit law will probably also ignore a helmet law.

@mjr @raymaccarthy the difference is you can spot someone not wearing a helmet at a distance, much harder to spot someone who's bypassed the limiter on their ebike...

MJ Ray Feb 5

@quixoticgeek @raymaccarthy much harder, but still easy here due to the speeds they do without pedalling.

@raymaccarthy @mjr I've done over 72kph on my bike without dying. How is going faster than 20kph unsafe ?

@quixoticgeek @mjr
People break speed limits in all kinds of vehicles frequently and don't die, but it's not safe. There are also roads here where a lot of the time it's not safe to go as fast as limit.

@raymaccarthy @mjr @quixoticgeek You got me curious there.

49cc mopeds seem to have a power output of 1.5-2.5 kW. That's more than any ebike that I'm aware of (and an order of magnitude more than anything that's road-legal in the EU). I'm sure there is a lesser difference in power at the road, because those CVTs on mopeds can't be efficient, but I don't imagine the gap is completely closed.

Of course, for this converation the power of the vehicle seems beside the point compared to the speed that it operates at. That, I grant, is closer, although the mopeds are still quicker (about double the speed of any ebike that is road-legal in the EU, although comparable to a normal racing bike with a fit rider, or nearly any cyclist going downhill)

@raymaccarthy @mjr @quixoticgeek I like the approach of Washington state here: they have two categories of ebike (actually 3, but two that matter here):

One type has electric assist that cuts out at 20 mph. It is treated as a bike for all legal purposes.

The other type has electric assist up to 30 mph, but it is not allowed on pavements, cycle trails, etc - it has to be in the road with the traffic.

To me the second type seems quite dangerous without a motorbike helmet - and it scared me when I tried one out - but by removing them from protected bike areas the risk is mostly restricted to the cyclist themselves.

(as an aside, I think the 20mph limit for the first type is a better choice than the 25kph in most of Europe. At 25kph, non-electric commuter cyclists are getting annoyed at having to overtake you....)

@swaldman @raymaccarthy @mjr here we have two kinds of ebike, those with a 250w motor that cuts out at 25kph, they are bikes for all legal purposes.

Then we have speed pedelecs, they can go upto 50kph, require a license, insurance, number plate, helmet, and are banned from some bike infrastructure. Popular with people who have an interurban commute.

@quixoticgeek @raymaccarthy @mjr Is there a legal or practical distinction between them and electric motorbikes?

@swaldman @raymaccarthy @mjr i believe so.

Jos Dingjan Feb 5

@swaldman @quixoticgeek @raymaccarthy @mjr Yes. Different rules, different technical requirements, etc. EDIT To be precise: speed pedelecs are classified as mopeds, and need to follow the same rules & technical requirements (modulo maybe one or two points). Electric motorbikes are treated the same as non-electric motorbikes.

(Vehicle classes L1e, L2e or L6e versus L3e, L4e, L5e or L7e)

Jos Dingjan Feb 5

@swaldman @quixoticgeek @raymaccarthy @mjr (Differences between speed pedelecs and mopeds that I know of: pedalling-activated power versus throttle-activated power, and the type of helmet that’s allowed (NTA 8776 or ECE R22-certified for speed pedelec, only ECE R22 for moped))

@happydisciple @quixoticgeek @raymaccarthy @mjr thanks. Equivalence with mopeds makes some sense IMHO. I didn't actually realise that mopeds weren't classified as small-engined motorbikes.

Jos Dingjan Feb 5

@mjr @quixoticgeek @raymaccarthy @swaldman That might just be a terminology thing. “Light two-, three-, or four-wheeler: max 50 cm3 cylinder volume & max speed 45 km/h” versus “Heavy two-, three-, or four-wheeler [not a car], with min 50 cm3 cylinder volume and min speed 45 km/h” (very much summarised and driving an HGV through all subtleties)