someoneIs it theoretically possible Trump and ICE are killing a very large number of immigrants (like 25% of those detained) and no one knows?
I want to have enough faith in humanity to believe that someone inside those camps would leak this information if it were happening. I want to
Possible, but highly unlikely.
For starters, if that many were killed, I think it’d be really hard to keep a lid on it these days.
Secondly, I’ve done a lot of reading on the atrocities of WW2, and two immediate constraints come to mind:
- Bodies. While possible, disposing of that many bodies without anyone noticing will be really hard.
- The gas chambers of ww2 were only planned during the Wannsee conference in 1942, long after the holocaust actually started. The gas chambers were built because the original plan was not sustainable: People killing other people at an industrial scale. No matter how vile a person is, the human mind was not built to deal with having to mow down swathes of humans with a gun. Even the worst SS troops largely couldn’t deal with killing that many defenseless people, even if they were convinced it was “for the greater good”. The amount of SS troops who ended up unable to continue due to the mental after effects is staggering.
DiplomjodlerI’d like to add that these people are evil, but also monumentally stupid. If anything like that happened you could be sure that the perpetrators would brag about it on social media.
bearboiblakeThe amount of SS troops who ended up unable to continue due to the mental after effects is staggering.
I’m interested to learn more about this, could you point me in the right direction?
two immediate constraints come to mind:
- Bodies. While possible, disposing of that many bodies without anyone noticing will be really hard.
They’re already using military cargo planes for “deportation” flights. Maybe some don’t have any live passengers, and they just dump the bodies mid-ocean. No need for mass graves, just load cargo containers onto a cargo plane and off it goes. If it lands with one or two fewer than it started with, that’s just a paperwork issue.
dan1101Yes. And based on everything else that MAGA and billionaires have been caught doing and defending, I think there is almost certainly widespread sex trafficking and abuse of the detainees. Why else would the administration try so hard to prevent Congress from observing the facilities?
If the Trump thugs act this badly on the streets then how horribly much worse do you think people are being treated I’m these secret detention facilities completely hidden from public view? This IMO will be seen as one of the worst chapters of our country once all the truth comes out.
Bad enough to end the Republican party in the long run? Hopefully.
ICE has always “lost” suspicious amounts of children.
I’m not sure that your second point is still a constant, though this is just an opinion and I’m open to discussion on this. They seem to have solved the problem of people not being up to mass killings, through desensitization through social media (I’m thinking of telegram groups specifically). There have been a lot of cases shown recently of people taking outright glee in their and others’ grotesque murders, en masse.
Actually this is pretty good evidence they haven’t started doing that yet. There would be leaks.
Skullgriden.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasily_Blokhin
Blokhin was selected for the position by Joseph Stalin in 1926 and led a company of executioners that performed and supervised numerous mass killings in the Soviet Union during Stalin’s reign, mostly during the Great Purge and Eastern Front of World War II.[1] Blokhin is recorded as having executed tens of thousands of prisoners by his own hand, including his killing of about 7,000 Polish prisoners of war during the Katyn massacre in spring 1940, making him the most prolific official executioner in recorded world history.[1][2][3] Blokhin was forced into retirement in 1953 after the death of Stalin and condemned during de-Stalinization shortly before his death in 1955.
It’s worth remembering that something like 5% of the population is sociopathic. That’s a lot of people who are morally compromised.
More of them are sadists, as in nothing wrong with them, they just choose evil every day.
tocopherolNazis weren’t able to fly easily over the ocean during WW2. You wouldn’t be able to reach Holocaust numbers with a plane, but I think “deporting” people but dumping them into the ocean could be possible and seems easy to hide.
Death flights have quite a long history, sadly, and were a favourite of far right South American dictatorships promoted by the USA…
Bodies would be washing up on shore or limbs would be showing up in the stomachs of fish.
ApyteleA lot of the times our hospital security show up to my deescalation classes after leaving a job in corrections. One of the things we often commiserate on is that they got into corrections and I into the state hospital to try and help other people grow and heal but what happened is that we got caught in a loop of “what am I going to see next that I’m going to have to report?” I’m now working for a psych unit in a regular hospital which still has it’s flaws but none comparable to the state.
First you see a patient spit in the face of a staff member who has to be physically held back from hitting them (they actually told us we’re allowed to restrain our coworkers if that happens), then you see a staff member get called racial slurs and they get up in the patients face and yell at them and you have to get between them and tell your coworker to take a walk but it’s hard to get them to do that because it’s 2am and there’s no other techs on the unit and they know the nurse isn’t gonna come out to help you before it’s too late. And those reactions make sense and you wonder why they’re packing you in with so many patients that your coworker can’t just walk away. And then you see somebody posture and yell at a patient who’s just all around rude but again it’s 2am and you can’t make it to 7 with just one tech.
And you also know that you’re going to need to choose the moment that it’s too much and that’ll be the end. Because if you stay after that you become the “them” in the “us vs them” and one day you’re going to face a violent patient at 2am and the tech who’s with you will leave you alone with that patient because “I don’t want you to report me too.”
And if you’re smart, you get out before it gets that far. One day a nurse asked me what I’d seen happen and I told them (truthfully) that I’d been at lunch and had no idea what they were talking about and they cut the conversation off. And I had no idea what patient or staff member it would’ve been about (as far as I could tell all of the patients were the same as before I’d gone to lunch) so I couldn’t have reported anything anyway. But I had to ask myself if I had seen something what would I have been asked to cover up?
And anybody who’s worked corrections or for the state will tell me something similar happened to them, or worse. And I just… You either get out or something awful happens. I’m so grateful I was able to get out before I personally got pulled into something. You think you’ll be able to be different but that system is just so much bigger than you.
And people who are outside of it living their happy lives will tell you they want a better system, but they will never truly be willing to put in the work needed to change it or even give you the resources to do it yourself. Like I’d been a patient at that state hospital previously and went back as a staff member to try and help and being a staff member was just so much worse somehow. I’m grateful that it gave me the experience to do what I do now and be an authority / teacher in the management of violent patients but it was hell while it was happening. No one who’s never been through that will ever really understand.
Ex NummisThe way to do that now is to send them abroad to disappear or die. That’s the deflection. Otherwise there are dead bodies in the US and state murder charges with no statute of limitations.
LibertyLizardYeah this is an open question to me. How many people are being sent to foreign prisons and what becomes of them there? There has been very little coverage since Kilmer Abrego Garcia was freed but my understanding is this is still ongoing.
BjörnMy grandma worked for the Nazis near a bad concentration camp near the end of WW2. She knew that it was “bad” in the camp. And when she got some really malnourished “rapists and murderers” to help with moving some furniture she didn’t associate them with the camp.
The worst she experienced was a Jewish secretary being murdered by her boss because he “lost his temper”. Happened while she was away so she didn’t know more.
And by her account most of the guys were huge idiots. And still she only found out about the real extent of the camps after the war.
Lol, no, sorry to say that, but your grandma was a collaborationist and she most certainly knew what was happening, she surely just pretended otherwise to escape judgement.
She was naive. She asked a friend who was about to have an audience with Hitler to tell him about how undersupplied the camp in Minsk is. Because in her mind surely the Führer wouldn’t let these people needlessly suffer. Hitler told the friend not to listen to “those rumors”.
She did not call them rapists and murderers. That’s what they told her. That’s the lie they told people outside of the camps to justify any cruelty. In this instance the extended lie was that they were coming from some other “normal” prison and not from the camp.
The Germans abandoned the Minsk ghetto before the end of the war and left about five thousand piled up charred bodies in the middle of town because it wasn’t a real death camp and they didn’t have cremation ovens, so that’s what you’re grandmother apparently didn’t notice.
She lived in the non-Jewish parts outside of the proper city and worked in an ex-Sowjet party building. When she arrived it still had Trotzki, Lenin and Stalin statues. And even then she couldn’t move freely and had to give the correct passwords when moving from one part of the city to another.
And still life went on in Minsk. Most people there just had to keep on living. Farmers still regularly brought wares. Even theatres and cinemas were still working even when good food was scarce and expensive.
She did mention seeing fires at night in the distance. That was officially attributed to the rebels. That was easy to believe for her since some of her colleagues died from hidden bombs.
The closest she came to the actual crimes was when she got a new bed from the storage where all the furniture from the murdered people were stored. Though back then those were from “defeated Russians”.
With the way she didn’t shy away from describing atrocities she did see (before the Nazis, from family members and of course during the war) I believe that she did not know what was happening in the ghetto. The way she wrote she didn’t even know when she wrote it that these people were killed right in the city. She (and me before you showed me) thought there was a camp near the city. But not a whole part of the city itself.
I’d honestly like to see an editorialised edition of her memoirs published that showed what really happened around her. To put it all into perspective.
Minsk was invaded by the Germans in 1941 and then re-invaded by the Soviets in 1944 with large bombing campaigns on both sides. Literally 85% of the city was flattened during the war with about 90,000 civilian casualties and close to half a million military casualties during that period, and that doesn’t even count the people killed by the Nazis in the ghetto.
Sounds like your grandmother is either telling stories or she was a tourist that didn’t spend much time there.
But she did not pretend it didn’t happen. Where are you getting that from? She just never saw it, or at least the full extent. She did see starved prisoners. She saw the furniture at the opera. Just because the killings happened in a part of the city she wasn’t allowed to visit doesn’t mean they didn’t happen.
And propaganda was trying their darnedest to keep it that way for most people. Even high ranking officers were boasting about how they were just about to beat the Sowjets the day before they retook the city.
She is telling the same story that most Nazis told, so its not really that hard to grasp.
Whelp, guess that means we can be sure to find out about mass killings in El Salvador or Alligator Alcatraz or wherever right away because it will be so obvious.
You think they could shoot 5,000 people in the middle of your city in the middle of the day and you wouldn’t notice?
snopes.com/…/men-lost-from-alligator-alcatraz/
Theoretically? No.
In reality it’s already happening.
This is from ONE concentration camp. If they’re moving people between these ‘detention centers’ and fudging the data or straight up not recording anything on where people are, then they can disappear who they want, and by the time their lawyers or family get visit approval it’s already too late.
We still have a (mostly) free press though. Eventually families and counsel would find out and the news would get it. Unless it started very recently I don’t find this credible.
Do we?
As far as I can tell, people can still report on these facts without major safety risk. Yes, the free press is under attack but it hasn’t succumbed yet.
Odd, nothing asked me to pay to read, give me a sec and I’ll pull their sources for you to assuage some of that doubt.
Do we have a free press?
I was a Palestine protestor at my college encampment. When I tell you that I lost so much faith in journalism after the lies they printed about us, I want you to take my full meaning. For persec reasons, I won’t say where or what they printed. But I remember camp being equal parts hopeful and defiant, and angry and resolute. I was one of the few with any real camping experience, so my self-assigned task was repairing tents and reviewing sleeping accommodations to make sure no one was cold or sleeping poorly. What the press made it look like was ‘group of absolutely clinically loony college kids invite hoards of homeless bums to their college and start trashing everything in sight under guise of protest’.
Without fail, it was recognizable and ‘reputable’ news orgs that were printing bald-faced outright lies about us. A few of the journalists I interacted with expressed… regret. Despair. Only one I met seemed happy to be there. The rest, the look on their faces made it feel like they were at our funeral. The ones that printed the truth? A local headshop magazine that usually covered what strains of cannabis were popular, and Unicorn Riot. The offbeat weirdos or dedicated ideologues.
It was so jarring to see a profession I regarded so highly eviscerating the truth. I’ve lost all faith in corporate media, and I will never get it back.
OK so it depends on what you mean by free press. I meant you can report the truth and that (usually) won’t get you arrested. I did not mean the mainstream press is always fair or honest.
There’s been a huge growth of independent journalists that give far more accurate accounts of leftist perspectives in protests, etc. Though you have to be careful because there’s plenty of dishonest independent journalists too. But if you have good media literacy and fact checking ability the information is still out there. As opposed to places where if you speak certain facts aloud you may be arrested.
Comparing the audience garnered by corporate media vs unethical independent media vs ethical independent media, America functionally does not actually have a free press. Take it from someone who had to stare down the barrel of a camera and get blasted on live TV for doing the right thing.
OK, I understand your position but again that’s not what I meant. I just meant the free dissemination of information is largely legal.
😈MedicPig🐷BabySaver😈Possible? Most anything is possible.
Is it happening? No.
𝕱𝖎𝖗𝖊𝖜𝖎𝖙𝖈𝖍No they showed a lot of JPEG.
I’m sure terrible things are happening but a blurry picture is not proof of anything.
starlingukEveryone knew. The Holocaust is just the Jewish part, by the way. It started with dissidents and “unnatural” people.
I’m not convinced that these people are organized and competent enough to kill people in that scale without people finding out.
That said, I am certain that a whole lot if people have been killed in custody and covered up, but I don’t think it’s on a scale like that.
I’m not convinced that these people are organized and competent enough to kill people in that scale without people finding out.
Same thoughts. But also too incompetent to single out the detainees who won’t ve missed.
That said, I am certain that a whole lot if people have been killed in custody and covered up, but I don’t think it’s on a scale like that.
Oh for sure, but it’ll again be at least part Incompetence and part maliciousness, with an unfortunate outcome.
We’re at the early stage of them trying plan A which is mass deportation to hostile countries until they realize how expensive it is. Then they’ll move on from there. So is mass killing happening? Not likely. Is genocide in place though? Absolutely.
Pasting a reply from elsewhere here:
There’s ~50 billion in fresh funding burning a hole in ICE’s pocket, purchase orders for camps very much including infrastructure for the handling of remains, and published quotas impossible to meet any other way
To be precise: there is no record of what happened to ~1600 of the “detainees” who were last seen at the camp in Florida when it got temporarily shut down. They were booked in but not out. Not held, released, or deported. Just gone.