Jonathan Beckford MinnamonFeb 2
mhoye

"Universal Basic Income will never work! It will immediately be soaked up by rent and other price increases!"

So, this is exactly the same as saying that the whole idea that competition drives down prices - you know, the core tenet at the heart of the idea of that a free market is a legitimate idea that serves the public good - is false.

UBI is the compromise position.

Feb 2 at 2:47pmWeb
Show threadJPFeb 2
@mhoye capitalists realized how potentially dangerous an idea it was for them so they moved to colonize it and turn the primary publicly espoused form of it into, essentially, "what if your paycheck got direct deposited into your various landlords' accounts". so the specifics of how, why, and for whom are critical in any discourse about it.
Show threadJakobpunkt🔥Feb 2

@mhoye No but... look obviously you and I are philosophically aligned but I think you have this backwards.

UBI drives up demand (increases # of ppl who can afford Thing) without immediately increasing supply, so a price hike is what the free market framework predicts. It doesn't increase competition among sellers, but among buyers.

Show threadJakobpunkt🔥Feb 2
@mhoye Or am I missing something?
Show threadmhoyeFeb 2
@jakobpunkt I think you're making a generalized claim - "ubi drives up demand for x" - that's unsupported. Is there more demand for food and housing than before? Or can people now meet their demands while having time or resources to pursue other non-market-visible things?
Show threadJakobpunkt🔥Feb 2
@mhoye ah yes good point
Show threadJakobpunkt🔥Feb 2
@mhoye Well but _if_ we want to claim that UBI would e.g. reduce rates of homelessness then we do have to admit that it will drive up demand for housing
Show threadJason OrendorffFeb 2

@mhoye I think the generalized claim is right. Economic demand is willingness to buy some quantity Q of a good at some price P, which inherently requires you to have QP amount of money. It's not the same as human needs and wants, which exist whether or not you can afford them.

UBI will increase economic demand, if people who were going hungry before will want to buy food.

Show threadJason OrendorffFeb 2
@mhoye However... if you're an economist, a bump in housing or food prices as some people's human wants and needs suddenly start appearing as economic demand... might be a good thing (price signals to bring out new supply and all that).
Show threadLog 🪵Feb 2

@mhoye UBI works better when the most basic needs are also supplied publicly, even if that supply is distributed privately. That is, to avoid price increases, develop farms. Build apartment buildings. Build solar and wind generators. Build buses and motorized bicycles.

Competition works when those supply and demand curves have the right slopes to them--and they don't have uniform slopes along the entire curve. Pushing to different part of the curve can win better feedback reinforcement.

Show threadLog 🪵Feb 2
@mhoye When the unemployment rate is 2%, employers compete for labor. When it's 20%, they do not. When vacancy rate is 20%, landlords compete on rent. When it's 2%, they do not. When a housing shortage exists, UBI absolutely will be soaked up by rent increases. So offer guaranteed employment in new homes construction, too. Wherever prices go up, add the state to that business as the competitor of last resort. When prices go back down, spin it off or shut it down.
Show threadNateFeb 2

@mhoye UBI being the compromise position is kind of key here.

Making basic needs such as shelter, food and medical care contingent on ability to pay is the same as saying society is just ok with letting people die if they can't pay. I believe that those essential needs should not be subject to market forces to begin with.

Do I want the government to tell me where I am going to live? No. Nobody wants that. But there has to be a better way than what we're all doing. Nobody should be collecting rent, for one thing. The idea of owning a house that you don't live in literally means that you have more than you need, and that surplus should be made available to others.

Show threadslashFeb 2
@mhoye @mwl It's been tried, for limited times, in several municipalities. And it seemed to work very well.
Show threadMichael W Lucas Feb 2

@agreeable_landfall @mhoye

UBI does not work, at all.

Yes, it lets people pay their bills and have a place to live. But it impairs business' ability to exploit workers, and that's unacceptable.

Show threadlkngrrr 🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️🏴‍☠️Feb 2
@mwl @agreeable_landfall @mhoye Not gonna lie, you had me in the first half.