Mastodawn

R.L. Dane

🍵

Jan 11

I 💔 the modern web

~ $ uname -srm
OpenBSD 7.8 amd64
~ $ sysctl -n hw.physmem |awk '{print $1/1024**3, " GiB"}'
3.72584  GiB
~ $ sysctl -n hw.physmem |awk '{print $1/1000**3, " GB"}'
4.00059  GB
~ $ ps wwaux |head -1
USER       PID %CPU %MEM     VSZ    RSS TT  STAT   STARTED       TIME COMMAND
~ $ ps wwaux |awk '$0~/firefox/ {t+=$6}; END {print t/1024, "MiB"}'
972.234 MiB
~ $

P.S., I forgot to mention that this is with a fresh run of firefox with only a single blank tab. XD

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Dušan Mitrović Jan 13

@rl_dane Every browser is a rather complex piece of software, because they need to be due to the sheer amount of web standards they have to support. High memory usage is expected, especially since all of them are now multi-process IPC pipeline behemoths.

I know. I hate how the web standards have grown by sheer accretion.

I miss proper Web 2.0.

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Amin, minor deity of the legume realm Jan 13

@rl_dane @dusnm

I have an upcoming blog post about this…

YAAAAAS DEW IT

Amin, minor deity of the legume realm Jan 13

@rl_dane @dusnm

First though I need to write my upcoming post titled "you will never need the new iphone"

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sotolf Jan 13

@amin @rl_dane @dusnm never had one, nobody needed one, they just want one because it's a fancy brand thing that conveys status.

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Amin, minor deity of the legume realm Jan 13

@sotolf @rl_dane @dusnm

I'll be discussing smartphones in general, I just wanted to reference a specific type for title purposes. ;)

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sotolf Jan 13

@amin @rl_dane @dusnm That title would be a surefire way to make people like me not read the post ;)

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Amin, minor deity of the legume realm Jan 13

@sotolf @rl_dane @dusnm

hmmmmmmmmmmm

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Amin, minor deity of the legume realm Jan 13

@sotolf @rl_dane @dusnm

"the new pixel" is ambiguous though, and "the new smartphone" just sounds odd to me

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sotolf Jan 13

@amin @rl_dane @dusnm I'm not quite sure why the new smartphone sounds odd? it's more inclusive at least :) I would even say you don't need the newest phone, as I don't think there are that many people with a wired phone anymore :)

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Amin, minor deity of the legume realm Jan 13

@sotolf @rl_dane @dusnm

I was kinda leaning toward iPhone because Apple fans seem to be the biggest offenders in terms of always wanting the newest model

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sotolf Jan 13

@amin @rl_dane @dusnm It's because they aren't in it for the functionality, neither are they in it for the value, they are in it especially to have something that you don't have, the whole point for them is to have the newest fanciest thing that "you don't have" :)

I don't think most people are that shallow.

They're caught up in the "oooo, shiny!" and vendor lock-in.

And they have no clue why their evil cousin with the green bubbles "ruins" group chats. 🙄

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Amin, minor deity of the legume realm Jan 13

@rl_dane @sotolf @dusnm

And the lack of OS and app support after a couple hardware versions have gone by is a big factor too…

I mean, iPhones have support for what, seven years?

Most android phones now have at least five.

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Amin, minor deity of the legume realm

@rl_dane @sotolf @dusnm

They're still perfectly functional from a hardware perspective for a long time after that mark though. :P

Yes, enshittification creates ewaste by not allowing you to put your own OS on them.

Of course, even if iPhone had unlocked bootloaders, ARM is such a horrid platform, it would take a team of dedicated devs weeks to reverse-engineer everything to make it totally functional with 100% FOSS stuff, if it were even possible.

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kabel42 Jan 13

@rl_dane @amin @sotolf @dusnm is that an ARM thing? Or a "no BIOS, no standards and no documentation" thing?

@kabel42 @amin @sotolf @dusnm

It's not intrinsically an ARM thing, it's just SOP for the ARM world. :/

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kabel42 Jan 13

@rl_dane @amin @sotolf @dusnm SOP?

@kabel42 @amin @sotolf @dusnm

Standard Operating Procedure(s)

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kabel42 Jan 13

@rl_dane @amin @sotolf @dusnm but thats normal on everything that's not built for you to supply an OS, right? Running Linux on an x86 Playstation is as difficult.

@kabel42 @amin @sotolf @dusnm

Was the Playstation ever x86? I thought they were always some sort of RISC?

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kabel42 Jan 13

@rl_dane @amin @sotolf @dusnm i think the current xbox and playstation are some AMD APU similar to the steam deck

@kabel42 @amin @sotolf @dusnm

Ah.

I think x86_64 is rapidly declining from the openness that once characterized the platform, so yeah. :/

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kabel42 Jan 13

@rl_dane @amin @sotolf @dusnm no one is making custom architectures for their gaming console anymore :)
But then, who has in the last 20 years

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sotolf Jan 14

@kabel42 @rl_dane @amin @dusnm The One, and series S/X (I think that's the current gem) are all x86 afaik

@sotolf @kabel42 @amin @dusnm

Yeah, I totally forgot that basically all consoles are x86_64 now, except the handhelds.

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kabel42 Jan 14

@rl_dane @sotolf @amin @dusnm
Are there still console handhelds?
The Steam deck is x86.
The switch (2) is a Nvidia graphics card with auxiliary ARM core.
Is there anything else left?

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sotolf Jan 14

@kabel42 @rl_dane @amin @dusnm The switch one is just a phone with joysticks and buttons :p

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kabel42 Jan 14

@sotolf @rl_dane @amin @dusnm also an nvidia tegra IIRC, but that could also have been the nokia n-gage

@kabel42 @sotolf @amin @dusnm

TACOPHONE!!!! 😂

@kabel42 @sotolf @amin @dusnm

Wait, Switch 2 switched from ARM to AMD? Did not know that.

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Amin, minor deity of the legume realm Jan 14

@rl_dane @kabel42 @sotolf @dusnm

I had no idea the original switch was ARM. I'm shocked, actually.

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sotolf Jan 14

@amin @rl_dane @kabel42 @dusnm the gameboy advance, ds and 3ds were all arm as well, the gb and gbc where both a bastardised version of the z80 :)

@amin @kabel42 @sotolf @dusnm

IIRC? People complained a lot about its performance and specs at the time.

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Amin, minor deity of the legume realm Jan 15

@rl_dane @kabel42 @sotolf @dusnm

I’ve only played on one once, when it first came out.

@amin @kabel42 @sotolf @dusnm

I remember seeing one when they first came out and thinking it was the coolest thing ever.

Now, it looks more like a dinky tablet. ;)

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sotolf Jan 15

@rl_dane @amin @kabel42 @dusnm It always looked like a dinky tablet.. :p

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sotolf Jan 15

@rl_dane @amin @kabel42 @dusnm It's great for what it is though, it's one of the few places left where developers have to care, and not just deliver a 160 GB huge game with fancy graphics and gameplay from 2016 :p

@sotolf @amin @kabel42 @dusnm

With the colorful joycons, it does look kinda cool. But alone, yeah. XD

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sotolf Jan 15

@rl_dane @amin @kabel42 @dusnm I don't think I've ever seen the base model switch in real life :p I have the lite version, which is basically just a fancy wide GBA :p

@sotolf @amin @kabel42 @dusnm

Tempting, price-wise, but a non-starter for my presbyopia.

Having to play games with my glasses on would be a bummer. XD

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sotolf Jan 15

@rl_dane @amin @kabel42 @dusnm Yeah, they complained a lot, like gamers tend to do about nintendo stuff when it comes out, every time, the same has been the case with almost every single piece of hardware that nintendo has released :P Since it was never the fastest or most modern stuff.

@sotolf @amin @kabel42 @dusnm

Yeah, I remember people bellyaching all over the place in '96 about the N64 cartridge capacity limitations.

The sad part is when ROM Cartridges still had loading screens, because the CPU had to decompress audio resources into RAM. IIRC, StarFox 64 was annoying with this.

8MB was very limited compared to a 650MB data CD, but then again, early CD games just streamed CD Audio data for the soundtrack. Actually using a serviceable on-board synth chip like the N64 had made things more reasonable.

Also, using the GPU for cutscenes instead of just streaming MPEG-1 off of CD actually looked better in some limited examples. ;)

I think the N64 changed gaming a lot for the better, even if it was the last cart-ROM-based machine for a little while.

I'm sad that Nintendo has abandoned physical media. That's a no-go for me. I don't really even want to use a game console that requires an Internet connection, if I can help it. :P

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sotolf Jan 15

@rl_dane @amin @kabel42 @dusnm What are you saying? nintendo handhelds have always supported physical media, the switch 1 and 2 included.

@sotolf @amin @kabel42 @dusnm

My understanding is that they abandoned (or are beginning to abandon) physical media with the switch 2.

You GET cartridges, but the cartridge is basically just a token to download the game. :/

But I don't know what percentage of games are like this.

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sotolf Jan 15

@rl_dane @amin @kabel42 @dusnm What you are talking about are the game-key-cartridges, they tried, but most people hated them so much they are going back on it .

There is also a huge gulf between the N64 to the NS2 where physical media/cartridges were still huge, I like them too, but can live with having an online store, but I don't really buy expensive games in the first place, and not often games that are that huge.

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kabel42 Jan 14

@rl_dane @sotolf @amin @dusnm wikipedia says, both are nvidia tegra

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kabel42 Jan 14

@rl_dane @sotolf @amin @dusnm i thought the tegra was discontinued after the switch one because no one wanted to use them

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Bad Opinion Guy Jan 13

@rl_dane @amin @sotolf @dusnm

I saw someone talking recently about how arm never gets any credit for what they've done for modern technology, and I was just like "GOOD, _fuck_ them"

@OpenComputeDesign @amin @sotolf @dusnm

I mean, it's a superior, RISC-ish architecture in many ways.

It's just that there's no openness or standardization, and kind of a nightmare for FOSS. :/

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Bad Opinion Guy Jan 13

@rl_dane @amin @sotolf @dusnm

I'm sure the architecture it's self is, _fine_

But ARM as an organization has totally fucked their whole ass job.

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kabel42 Jan 13

@rl_dane @OpenComputeDesign @amin @sotolf @dusnm
Isn't arm more open than x86? As in, everyone (with enough money) can buy the design and manufacture chips. And if you have the money to manufacture chips you should be able to afford an arm license.
And the nightmare for FOSS is more all the parts that the chip manufacturer adds that are not form ARM?
I'm not trying to defend ARM, i prefer RISC-V for developing their spec in the open.
<edit> which has the same problems </edit>

@kabel42 @OpenComputeDesign @amin @sotolf @dusnm

I think the ISA itself may be, but the hardware is less so. There are no VESA video modes or standard hardware interfaces for anything. Every single phone and bit of ARM cruft out there is a bespoke engineering job, and it's all a nightmare to reverse-engineer. (AFAIK)

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kabel42 Jan 13

@rl_dane @OpenComputeDesign @amin @sotolf @dusnm
but that's the, there is no default video interface, there isn't even a standard GPIO interface, every manufacturer adds their own. But AFAIK that's a problem every architecture has, unless it specifies the whole computer.

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kabel42 Jan 13

@rl_dane @OpenComputeDesign @amin @sotolf @dusnm
newer ARM has at least a default float interface, ARMv6 had AFAIK 3 incompatible official ones

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Bad Opinion Guy Jan 13

@kabel42 @rl_dane @amin @sotolf @dusnm

Hottest of takes:
It doesn't matter a single fucknegle how open something is if it facilitates making other things closed

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kabel42 Jan 13

@OpenComputeDesign @rl_dane @amin @sotolf @dusnm sure, but i still don't see how that is an ARM thing? If the CPU ate x86 or RISC or MIPS or whatever Instructions, it would be just as bad.
It's a problem of missing system spec and standard peripheral interface.

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Bad Opinion Guy Jan 13

@kabel42 @rl_dane @amin @sotolf @dusnm

Maybe its just an expectation I've gotten from x86, where the name of the architecture, to me, implies there is at least _some_ level of intercompatibility. Arm does not, to any practical degree, have this. But maybe that's just an x86 thing

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kabel42 Jan 13

@OpenComputeDesign @rl_dane @amin @sotolf @dusnm you can execute code, but i think that's all that's in the arm spec. An architecture would at least need a table with all the peripherals and some standardised interface, but arm chips are so different, I don't even know what a relevant minimal interface would be. There is probably a serial interface in every arm chip :)

It would be great to have something similar to IBM AT compatible for general *NIX compatible stuff. That could even be the same between ARM and RISC-V and ...

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Bad Opinion Guy Jan 13

@kabel42 @rl_dane @amin @sotolf @dusnm

It's my understanding that various arm CPUs absolutely cannot all run the same code. Even the at a software level, each chip requires tons of fussing and fiddling to port code between arm chips.

also, a further hot take, in this era of SoCs, if common peripherals _aren't_ standardized in your architecture, it's not a real architecture.

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kabel42 Jan 13

@OpenComputeDesign @rl_dane @amin @sotolf @dusnm but ARM is just an instruction set, and even then there have been different versions over the decades.

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Bad Opinion Guy Jan 13

@kabel42 @rl_dane @amin @sotolf @dusnm

Fullest level of hot take:
if all arm means is "a chip with these sets of operations, maybe" then it's completely meaningless

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kabel42 Jan 13

@OpenComputeDesign @rl_dane @amin @sotolf @dusnm well, it tells you which gcc to use.

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Bad Opinion Guy Jan 13

@kabel42 @rl_dane @amin @sotolf @dusnm

before SoCs, pretty much no chip maker ever released just a CPU. They always released a full suite of PIOs and timers and stuff. Sure, not every computer used the standard chips, and they were usually at different hardware addresses on different computers. But since processors these days are expected to have all those features baked in, now more than ever, any architecture that doesn't include those just emphatically not a full architecture

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kabel42 Jan 13

@OpenComputeDesign @rl_dane @amin @sotolf @dusnm
Is ARM selling Chips?
AFAIK every manufacturer has their own timer/... they put in their chips. And those can be the same between ARM and RISC-V (the only two i've used).

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Bad Opinion Guy Jan 13

@kabel42 @rl_dane @amin @sotolf @dusnm

my point is really, if timers and peripheral controllers and such aren't part of the architecture, it's not actually an architecture, or indeed, anything of real value.

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kabel42 Jan 13

@OpenComputeDesign @rl_dane @amin @sotolf @dusnm yeah, more a compiler target

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Bad Opinion Guy Jan 13

@kabel42 @rl_dane @amin @sotolf @dusnm

at _best_...

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kabel42 Jan 13

@OpenComputeDesign @rl_dane @amin @sotolf @dusnm
At least for embedded MCUs and C code, switching manufacturers is a bigger difference than switching between ARM and RISC-V

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Bad Opinion Guy Jan 13

@kabel42 @rl_dane @amin @sotolf @dusnm

yeah, that really speaks to "this is an NXP cpu, that just happens to have a bit of ARM patent bs inside it".

Arm, I continue to insist, deserves no credit.
And I guess that goes for a lot of so called "architectures"

At least z80s and 6502s had better code compatibility, and were nearly functional fully standalone.

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kabel42 Jan 13

@OpenComputeDesign @rl_dane @amin @sotolf @dusnm thats why mbed exists, so you can have the same high level source code on different ARM MCUs

Free open source IoT OS and development tools from Arm | Mbed

Mbed OS is the fastest way to build IoT products with Arm processors

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sotolf Jan 14

@rl_dane @kabel42 @OpenComputeDesign @amin @dusnm Are you sure this isn't mainly because apple is the main adopter of ARM for now? They are doing stuff like that on purpose, like when they used to superglue their laptops together...

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kabel42 Jan 14

@sotolf @rl_dane @OpenComputeDesign @amin @dusnm some microslop surface are arm, and all the $fruit pi boards, and a lot of PDAs use an Intel arm core

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sotolf Jan 14

@kabel42 @rl_dane @OpenComputeDesign @amin @dusnm Yeah, I was inaccurate there, I was just thinking more in the consumer laptop/computer space, for sure there are a ton of other more specialised hardware running arm for all sorts of things :)