Vaguely here ๐ณ๏ธโโง๏ธ๐ณ๏ธโ๐Fucking done with appeasing cis people.
Give trans kids HRT.
We know that nearly all kids who start on puberty blockers go on to hrt (because, shockingly, kids actually have insight into themselves).
We know from the evidence it's better if kids have their puberty at the same time as their cis cohort.
So just give them the fucking hrt.
Blockers were always a compromise and if cis people can't compromise then let's do the best thing for the trans kids.
sophteis ๐๐ฆ
Distorted 
Ozzelot 
Ghost_Cat
ฦิส
ฯาฝ
StoneBear 
Nelson LopezI used to be one of those people who thought "what if they change their mind?" until i saw that most trans kids who have undergone HRT at an early age end up extremely happy and confident with their gender
gender identity isn't something you can "retract from", i feel, but just something you learn to understand from yourself
Yep, and sometimes it takes fifty f'kin years and finding a safe space and likeminded people to realise, "oh, is THAT why...."
I think the (relative) safety of marriage equality and having representation on television and such is why we're seeing so many kids come out right now when it was Such A Big Deal just to be _gay_ when I was a kid... and I know from up-close-and-personal (i.e. _as a parent) experience that when kids can _be_ who they are inside they are SO much happier. Two stepkids, two fosterlings, not a one of'em straight, three of'em happy as a clam in their own skin and one is well on their way to that place...
If the parents and the community raise and celebrate the kids they've _got_, and not the kids they _expected_, the kids will be fine. Trying to pigeonhole kids gets you _dead kids_, and nay _frack_ that.
๐ธ lily ๐ณ๏ธโโง๏ธ 
ฮธฮ โ & โ@pyoor i want to do this. i want to be the epic trans woman everyone looks up to for advice and stuff
Barry Cook ๐จ๐ฆ@pyoor - itโs not appeasing cis people.
Itโs opposing those who use religion and other misinformation indoctrination as an excuse for their ignorance, bad behaviour and intolerance.
Itโs opposing those who use religion and other misinformation indoctrination as an excuse for their ignorance, bad behaviour and intolerance.
Emma Liv
ckafi
Bob@pyoor I don't want to seem ignorant (though I am uninformed) but when I look back at my life when I was 13, 15, 18 or even 21 I don't see a person who can or should be making the kinds of decisions that affect them for the rest of their life. I mean, I wanted a League of Legends tattoo on my chest in high school.
In what ways is it different for trans kids? Is that experience significantly different enough to let them make those decisions?
In what ways is it different for trans kids? Is that experience significantly different enough to let them make those decisions?
Mx Rey (Fuck ICE) ๐ ๐ณ๏ธโโง๏ธ@batchofcookies @pyoor this completely ignores the damage that going through the wrong puberty did to my body, and the bodies of millions of other trans people
the decision isn't "do nothing" vs "start HRT", it's "go through the wrong puberty and spend years and massive sums of money trying to correct the damage" vs "start HRT"
@rey @pyoor thank you for sharing. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me understand. Is there a possibility that the decision to take HRT could be the wrong one for some children? In my experience kids seek out validation from people they admire, what happens when one of them is just following their peers or their community? Is there a process to make sure that decision is right for that child? I just worry that someone could go through the same experiences you did, but flipped
ยทJ Mopp@batchofcookies No children are given HRT straight out the bat. Part of gender dysphoria diagnosis is that it is persistent. If you are a child your first steps in transition are clothes and a haircut
Sarah Sammis@jmopp @batchofcookies And trying out a new name or two.
But cis passing kids can be put on HRT. My youngest was put on birth control to help regulate her hormones when puberty was slow in starting for her and it was causing health problems for her. Then later she realized she was possibly gender fluid.
ลniฤ
ca Syrena (Detrans Arc)@jmopp @batchofcookies to be clear hrt should be over the counter, forcing trans kids through the process of a long therapy and as such taking away their time is just as damaging.
If someone is not sure and wants to have therapy over it on their own volition, it's fine, but it shouldn't be mandatory for kids to access hormones.
Crimson Red โญ@batchofcookies @rey @pyoor Not likely. Regret rate for transition is less than 1%, and most of that 1% is regret due to transphobia as a result of transition and not anything to do with regret due to not actually being trans.
Simply put, the numbers of regret are too low for this to be a genuine concern anyone should have, whereas the harm caused by forcing kids through the wrong puberty is enormous.
Simply put, the numbers of regret are too low for this to be a genuine concern anyone should have, whereas the harm caused by forcing kids through the wrong puberty is enormous.
@pyoor @rey @batchofcookies It is far more often the case that us trans people get forced through the wrong puberty because society not wanting to give us hormones as children, than children who actually receive hormones have any regret at all, let alone regret caused by them not being transgender.
@batchofcookies @pyoor sure! some kids might end up taking HRT and ending up with changes after a few years that aren't what they want.
however, given that it's socially acceptable and common to let kids play football (which gets a roughly 1-in-20 chance of brain damage per season), I really don't see this risk as unusual or bad in the context of what we let kids do, you know?
eg0n โ
@batchofcookies @rey @pyoor Bob, this sort of transphobia is so hurtful to see, especially couched in superficially humble and "seeking understanding" language.
.
Think about it - did we let you choose to go through male puberty at 13? What if you changed your mind?
Should we have let you date at 18? What if you were gay and should have been dating a different gender?
Should we let you marry at 21? Or should we be worried about you making such an important life-altering decision, with difficult physical, emotional, and legal implications if you change your mind?
The reason that I'm calling this transphobia is because you have raised the epistemic bar so high as to be ridiculous, when in virtually any other decision about your own life you would never require such overwhelming amount of evidentiary warrant - you'd just let the cisgender heterosexuals do their thing .
Please try to do better because what you're saying is really harmful, especially on such an important day like Trans Day of Remembrance.
@eg0n @rey @pyoor It makes me sad to hear that I'm coming across as disingenuous, I don't get to interact with the trans community very often, both online and IRL, I just wanted to engage to see if people would be willing to share their experiences and give me a different perspective on the issue. I know it's hard to convey my exact feelings and intentions in a couple hundred characters but I hope you understand that I'm trying to understand. Thank you for your words.
@batchofcookies @rey @pyoor forcing your kid to go through ANY puberty is the equivalent of giving them hrt
It's just about listening to your kid through what kind of puberty it wants to have to make it happy
2somethingIn what ways is it different for trans kids?The only way it's different is that you are applying a double standard. Most kids who get HRT are cis, and there is no political dispute as to whether they are "mature enough" to "decide." Every law which proposes banning "gender affirming care" explicitly says it only applies to trans kids, and that cis kids are still allowed to get the exact same medicine to do the exact same thing.
Let's do a thought experiment. Imagine a 13-year-old cis boy gets in a car crash. Luckily, he survives, with his spine, arms, and legs unharmed. The only trouble is that he loses his penis and testicles. Without testicles, his body no longer produces significant quantities of testosterone, which will prevent him from going through the puberty he wants to go through.
How old does he have to be before he's mature enough to decide to make the life-altering decision to take testosterone? Should he wait until he's 21 to begin puberty?
How old does he have to be before he's mature enough to decide if he wants to get a phalloplasty (surgically constructed penis)?
Imagine if that boy was you. If some people were saying that you, as a cis boy, have to wait until you are 25 before you can decide to go through normal puberty. Do you think their concerns are reasonable?
Let's do a thought experiment. Imagine a 13-year-old cis boy gets in a car crash. Luckily, he survives, with his spine, arms, and legs unharmed. The only trouble is that he loses his penis and testicles. Without testicles, his body no longer produces significant quantities of testosterone, which will prevent him from going through the puberty he wants to go through.
How old does he have to be before he's mature enough to decide to make the life-altering decision to take testosterone? Should he wait until he's 21 to begin puberty?
How old does he have to be before he's mature enough to decide if he wants to get a phalloplasty (surgically constructed penis)?
Imagine if that boy was you. If some people were saying that you, as a cis boy, have to wait until you are 25 before you can decide to go through normal puberty. Do you think their concerns are reasonable?
@batchofcookies I think that others have sufficiently answered this question - First, the personal: from my position I'm 47 and still undoing the damage that my wrong-sex puberty wrought on my body. I got to start HRT *young* for 2000. I started at 20 years old. By then I'd already got changes to my body that I couldn't undo and that hurt me to look at and consider. It's taken me a *very long time* to come to terms with and love my body and I'm still thinking of expensive surgery to change some stuff that makes me dysphoric.
Every day of puberty->adulthood I considered killing myself. I held knives, I thought about jumping in front of vehicles, I remember looking out of the upper story windows of the biochemistry tower when I was at uni and I thought about jumping. That was Every. Single. Day.
Because every day my body betrayed me.
I nearly killed myself at 20, I was so fucking scared and all that could have been avoided. All that pain and trauma.
And look, I love my life now. It's really hard for me to think how I'd change mine because I love my wife, I have a home and pets, and *really phenomenal* friends. But fuck, if I could go back and fix it for teen me? I would.
The not personal:
We know - from evidence - that nearly all trans kids who go on blockers go on to seek HRT. We know kids who *aren't* treated go on to kill themselves (and kids in unaffirming environments try to do so at a rate of 70+%, as demonstrated by the studies in the US post the banning of blockers; also incredibly damning is the fact the NHS now refuses to release or tracks stats properly for self harm/suicide for trans for kids now they're denied blockers). We know from the evidence that it's better for >99% of the kids treated.
So the alternative is that we don't treat - because we're concerned that <1% would have the pain that you're putting the >99% through now.
Putting the risk we *might* harm one cis kid above more than one hundred trans kids we'd save from that torture? I don't see how that's acceptable.
And honestly? If you don't feel better on HRT you can stop it. I know how I felt when my primary circulating sex hormone was testosterone and it was *fucking awful*. Nearly all trans people I know feel better on HRT. Some are ambivalent about it but like the changes in their body.
These aren't *immediately irreversible*. Kids take *years* to get through puberty. They can start it and go "oh shit, no, this is worse" and stop no harm no foul.
But what you can't ever do is completely eradicate the pain caused by going through the wrong puberty - and those trans kids that survive this? They're going to be righteously angry because this is trauma inflicted for a tiny few to harm many.
@pyoor this is such a beautifully written and heartfelt statement. I appreciate you sharing your experiences. You're absolutely right, there's definitely more nuance to it than "on HRT" or "off HRT", there's time in between to decide. After reading from some other folks it seems like the intention is to have systems in place to make sure it's not a decision anyone would regret. Y'all changed my mind, thanks for engaging with me :)
@batchofcookies I'm glad we talked :)
zy@batchofcookies
@pyoor kids still get people around them to make sure they know what they're doing. also, isn't hrt the same choice as no hrt? you get a puberty anyway. so is there any downside to hrt except getting 5G?
@pyoor kids still get people around them to make sure they know what they're doing. also, isn't hrt the same choice as no hrt? you get a puberty anyway. so is there any downside to hrt except getting 5G?
thick but spreadable 
@pyoor Puberty blockers were always a compromise, it is time we start giving trans kids actual hormones.
Steff ๐ณ๏ธโโง๏ธ ๐ณ๏ธโ๐@pyoor
Trans kids are suffering merely to assuage the pearl clutching of cis people who will always view us as subhuman.
Trans kids are suffering merely to assuage the pearl clutching of cis people who will always view us as subhuman.