Mastodawn

sprigatito_bread

Is it common for family members to spy on each other's sexual behavior to find evidence of "degeneracy"? Or did I grow up in hell?

https://lemmy.world/post/38828538

Is it common for family members to spy on each other's sexual behavior to find evidence of "degeneracy"? Or did I grow up in hell? - Lemmy.World

When I (23M) was growing up, my parents hated whenever I locked my door for privacy. Like most adolescent boys, I had a libido and things that I liked to look at when I was taking care of that. When I was 15, my dad would lean against my door every day to listen in. One day, he heard I was in the middle of it, and as quickly as possible, he picked the lock of my door and caught a glimpse of me watching some pretty crude and wacky rule 34 that was sorta ambiguously gendered. He immediately closed the door and retreated to his room. When I cleaned up and asked why he “knocked,” he said “nothing” with an unsettling smile. 7 years later, when I came out as passionately heterosexual because I finally figured out what my type was, he became very angry and told me I was REALLY a [f-slur], and he could prove it by revealing what he caught me watching all those years ago. I actually thought he would be glad to know how I turned out, but it seems that he, a conservative, was angry that I wasn’t queer. Recently, my older brother got into my journal with all of my private thoughts. The first thing he read was the dozens of pages of sexual fantasies I wrote down for my sole enjoyment and reference. When I confronted him, he justified his intrusion into my most intimate thoughts with “God told me to do it.” He nitpicked my fantasies and told me that my openness to choosing my gender and sexual expression instead of forcing myself into the cishet box would inexplicably turn me into a pedophile. It seems that 5,000+ unfiltered words exhaustively proving my heterosexuality for strong mature women wasn’t satisfactory. I’m curious if others have have experienced this dynamic of family members violating someone to “test” their sexuality and look for evidence of deviance, or if this is a complete “WTF” situation that isn’t even a thing among most conservative households.

Overspark Nov 15

Sounds pretty fucked up to me. Normal people will just accept you for who you are, whatever that is. Well, unless you’re a serial killer or something, but as long as we’re talking about consensual sexual preferences they should stay well out of your stuff.

serpineslair Nov 15

That sounds pretty fucked tbh.

Greg Clarke Nov 15

That’s not normal. I’m sorry you had to go through that mate.

Hell

Jo Miran Nov 15

Yep. Sounds like you grew up in hell.

kelpie_returns Nov 15

Your parents sound nuts. Sorry you had love with that, dude. I had some different but not all that different stuff as a kid, and therapy has been a really useful tool for unpacking those experiences and turning them into something a bit more useful. Would highly recommend it if you haven’t tried yet. Shit so cash

sprigatito_bread Nov 15

What has therapy been like for you? I’ve never done therapy before, and I’m kind of worried they’ll try to criticize and gaslight me into playing nice with people who I’m 90% sure are narcissists or try to get me to ignore the limitations that my health problems give me. (But then again, I can’t help but notice that I was socially conditioned to expect shame, punishment, and destructive guidance if I ask for help.)

ragingHungryPanda Nov 15

The thing with therapists is that you need to find one that works for you, but that also takes experience.

But I think that if you avoid Christian counselors, you’ll more likey avoid that. My experience with Christian ones is that they tend to be more on the side of making you look the part rather than being your true self, since you know, your true self is despicable in the eyes of God and all.

I think it you can afford it, going over these things with a professional can help you work through things or help you identify how that’s affected you in ways you may not have thought.

and remember, you can always change therapists (just avoid changing because they challenge you)

TheRealKuni Nov 15

Bruh. Try therapy. Air those very concerns if you’re worried about them.

The way I like to think about therapy is you’re paying for access to a second brain, a well-trained one, to help you think through stuff. A good therapist guides you instead of leading you.

CanadaPlus Nov 15

Yes, therapists actually seem to love it when you tell them about your feelings about therapy.

mushroommunk Nov 15

I second the therapy, did wonders having grown up in a very similar environment to you. You definitely need to find the right therapist as the others said. Took me three to find the right one and my wife is on her fifth (but has been with that therapist for a while now).

You need to know what you want out of the therapy and be clear about yourself and willing to do the work. And yes, avoid Christian counselors

CanadaPlus Nov 15

(But then again, I can’t help but notice that I was socially conditioned to expect shame, punishment, and destructive guidance if I ask for help.)

This.

They’re always gentle in my experience, even when they’re trying to get you to question something you’ve assumed. Maybe they will say you should give people more of a chance, once they get to know your situation. But, if you just say no, worst case scenario they won’t have any other ideas. And I can’t imagine they’d tell you to deliberately hang around a narcissist.

Alternately, a lot of the most useful things they told me are things I hadn’t even considered, so maybe you’ll be surprised.

ButteryMonkey Nov 15

You are 100% allowed to ask for a different therapist, and tell them honestly what about the first one didn’t work for you.

Think of them as someone you hire, like a construction contractor building a new addition for you. If they do a bad job for your needs, fire them and hire someone else, just like you would if they disregarded your hypothetical missing leg while designing the layout, and gave you lots of stairs. Stairs don’t help you, even if they might be fine or even desired for someone else, just like a therapist who would criticize you or try to gaslight you isn’t helpful to you.

It might take a few tries, but it’s definitely worth it to find the right person if it’s not the first one.

My first ever therapist was super religious, and told me that it was better for me to be bored and vaguely unhappy in my relationship than to be alone (I’m a woman so..). She also told me I need to at least be spiritual, or I’d never get over my depression (incidentally went away when the relationship did.. funny, that..) I was raised without religion, and her comment about my relationship gave me the ick, so I found a different one. And that one was a lot better.

TheMadCodger Nov 15

I grew up in a crazy Christian environment, really messed with me for a long time. Go to therapy. You don’t have to stick with the first person you try, and it took me a few to find the right person to just click with. But you’re gonna need to talk this shit out. It’ll be rough, but worth it in the end. A good therapist will listen and ask questions, but they’re not going to make you do anything, least of all make ammends with people who are a bad influence on your life. You got this.

kelpie_returns Nov 15

Very late to answering this it seems, but basically him and I just discuss things about my life while he chimes in with different perspectives and advice (when appropriate). Each session is a bit different tho and sometimes he’ll give me “homework” if he thinks I’m struggling to see certain ideas from certain angles. This somet8mes means a worksheet and it sometimes means asking myself a certain question or wuestions when i notice myself or others hehaving in certain ways.

Hated that shit at first, but it’s actually kind of fun to peel back the layers and learn something new through it these days. Usually. Sometimes I forget and he will occassionally get a bit more direct about what he was trying to insinuate me toward, because a good therapist puts in the effort to meet you where you need to be met, while still pushing you to rise a little higher each day.

The first time I tried therapy was a different story (they were very presumptuous and certain of their correctness on these presumptions, basically. The exact kind of person that I tend to find incredibly annoying and unhelpful) so it was only a couple sessions with them before I decided it was just a really bad match and got tf out of there. Like others have said, the option to disconnect and try again with a different professional is always there, too. Sometimes, it is very necessary to take advantage of that.

That last line in your comment could potentially be a great jumping off point were you to try therapy. Making it clear what you fear about it right along with what you hope it could help with; that’s a great place to kick things off with a level-headed and helpfully-inclined talk therapist. And many of them (tho def not all) are offering exactly that.

Best of luck with whatever comes next for you, stranger!

You’ve got some excellent replies to this question already. I want to add something a therapist told me about therapy that I’ve found helpful.

Therapy isn’t about fixing everything that’s “wrong”. It’s mostly about identifying coping mechanisms we developed during childhood which no longer work for us as adults. Different techniques are used to help clients start opening up to doing therapeutic work or starting it in earnest. The goal though, regardless of the technique, is for the client to know themselves better and use that knowledge to build better emotional and social tools. To replace the coping mechanisms we’ve outgrown with better ones.

A comparison I’ve made is that therapy is like working with an occupational therapist. What’s “best” is conditional and is often usefully defined by what we find difficult or limiting. The best way to pick up something we’ve dropped varies person to person. The important bit is having healthy ways of picking it up again (with or without direct assistance).

Therapy ought to focus on self-understanding which helps us function in reality. In my experience most modern therapists advocate for this even if they aren’t forward about it.

Any therapist who councils you to capitulate to narcissists or ignore your disability should be reported to the relevant licensing authority for negligence at a minimum.

RagnarokOnline Nov 15

That’s not normal behavior for family members

Zombiepirate Nov 15

That’s incredibly controlling behavior from them. The privacy violations are egregious.

CannonFodder Nov 15

Your brother is likely a pedo. God here - I instruct you to report him and get the police to search his computer

sprigatito_bread Nov 15

Fetishizes female submission and powerlessness
Shows interest in “petite” women almost 2 feet shorter than him
Values women for how “pretty” they look
Says the Epstein situation "doesn’t matter"
Likes to sneak into other people’s private spaces without consent

I gotta hand it to you God, I think you might be onto something

Spacehooks Nov 15

Brother Is just a bully so thats simple. But i wonder why dad was upset op isint gay. I can think of a few reasons and none are good.

In cases like these is always better to want to distance from family. Also 200% prep any woman to before meeting family. I read enough stories that if they hold any animosity they may try bring up anything prove they are right and justify hate.

sprigatito_bread Nov 15

But i wonder why dad was upset op isint gay.

Every day, my dad liked to call me the f-slur and threaten to kill me or kick me out of the house “if he found out” I was gay. Apparently, I wasn’t in on the joke: in his head, he ALREADY KNEW I was gay, and so his words weren’t meant to prevent me from being gay, but rather to make me terrified of him.

It seems like he was angry because he lost a critical control mechanism over me and desperately sought to bring it back. I will never forget how shocked he looked when he saw me actually happy for the first time in years and I playfully deflected his insults instead of engaging with them. He sort of shut down and became depressed for a couple days before he came up with a new way to control me.

It seems that there is nothing that he and my brother hate more than my genuine happiness. Since they believe that they define who I am, how I feel, and what I am capable of, any feelings I am “not supposed” to feel will be violently crushed by them.

I am not supposed to be happy.

Spacehooks Nov 15

Understanding they need to feel this way but you dont need to be part of it is major. That is far more than others your age have been able to do. Find revenge by solidifying that happy life without them. It will remind them how useless they are without any cost to you. Win win.

I think you put it well already. Those people have issues. Try to build as much independence as possible, and run. This has nothing to do with conservatism or religion (other than maybe weaponizing those things), and everything with manipulation and mental illness.

As I said it in another comment: Run, don’t walk. You owe them nothing. But you owe yourself and the good people you met / can meet to live a good life.

meco03211 Nov 15

It kinda sounds like you’re doing your best to just live your life and that’s what they are so intrusive over. Sounds more like they want you to force yourself to suffer for religion as they have and it pisses them off that you’re doing you (figuratively and literally). I’d guess they are very sexually repressed.

sprigatito_bread Nov 15

My dad DOES have a tendency to make an unusual amount of phallic jokes, to the point where one day I responded with “You know, it’s okay to be bi, you can just say it” and boy he did NOT like that

Zephorah Nov 15

This is bizarre behavior on their part, especially your dad. My understanding is reading journals isn’t uncommon but it demonstrates an incredible lack of integrity.

Yeah not a single thing there is normal. You grew up in an unhinged household.

SeductiveTortoise Nov 15

Yeah, you grew up in hell. Sorry 😐

Besides that, “god told me” you should probably keep distance to your family.

HootinNHollerin Nov 15

Your parents are super fucked up and should be treated as such

Miles O'Brien Nov 15

“God told me to do it.”

The first time I heard that as a teenager, I made sure nobody ever felt comfortable saying it around me again.

Some mild stripping, knocked over glassware, and “speaking in tongues” later, sorry god made me do it.

mushroommunk Nov 15

My brother tried your approach, he got an exorcism as Satan was tempting him, lol.

One time some dickweasel in middle of night “invited” themself into my home would not leave bcus “God told them to”

Maybe just me not religious let alone Christian , but if God instructing peops to (go into random strangers homes|invade their privacy) , dœsn’t seem like very trustworthy person to take advise from !

jubilationtcornpone Nov 15

You were “filled with the holy spirit.” You really couldn’t help it. 🤷‍♂️

Bet that’s not normal. But sadly, absent parents are just as damaging. I wish someone stopped me from watching so much porn so early in my life.

higgsboson Nov 15

I dont need to read much past the title. Anyone who uses the term “degeneracy” unironically in trying to control the private lives of others is probably a shitbag and they definitely should be told to fuck off.

IronBird Nov 16

what if someone were say to “epstein and all that enabled him/enabled by him are degenerates”?

「黃家駒 Wong Ka Kui」(old account, migrated to Piefed)Nov 15

I have Asian parents (we live in the US) and they’re kinda abusive, mostly emotionally, and yes the trying to get in your room all the time was kind of “normal” in my “overton window” of parents. (emphasis on quotes, I’m not saying the “normal” equates to acceptable)

As for invasion of privacy, yes that was a common thing. My mother is constantly try to get access to my phone because she’s “worried about bad influences” or some shit. Like around when I was like 13, 14(?)… That kinda stopped when I got older.

The sexual aspects… idk, they said porn was bad, but I never really had any parental controls on my stuff (the stuff they allowed me to have, technically electronics not “my” things, more like they bought me stuff after I sort of begged for it). For context, Asia really represses the sex-related stuff, especially in China, where we were from, porn is blocked, like you could theoretically go to jail for porn, even of depictions of consenting adults. But even in democratic countries like South Korea, its still blocked (though, VPN access is easier in South Korea).

So yea… I never really told them about the porn… which I eventually kinda stopped anyways because I think I might be just asexual lol. But yea if they found out, they’d think its like “damaging for the brain” or something, they treat it almost like if you chatted with adults strangers or something.

Like “if you watch too much sexual stuff, you’re gonna lose the ability to reproduce” or some stupid shit. I don’t think China even has sex-education lmao. They never even said a thing, until I just randomly mentioned about my mother’s period stuff just as a subtle indicator of “yes, I know how human anatomy works lol”, they never really said a thing. Never had “the talk” lol. Very weird family dynamics in thos aspect.

I never had a journal, didn’t feel safe. I mean, I was very nerdy with codes and stuff so I’d probably have used a code had I been journaling.

My older brother never really dared to go through my stuff ever since I got my own room and like I got older. Like dude I can fight, sure, we both get hurt, but its like Mutually Assured Destruction, wanna start shit, I’ll mess us both up. Still, I worry he might perceive a transgression for something I didn’t do and then “revenge” on such perceived grievance. So yea its kinda like cold war all the time.

But as for the “test your sexuality” stuff, never happened. They kinda just assumed everyone is heterosexual. Religion isn’t that serious in China, so its never as crazy as the American South and the “Christians”. But yes it’s still very hetero-normative society.

My mom joked about “do you have any girlfriends? no? what about gay-friends?” then laughs like its funny or something. But also tells me to focus on school and not romance stuff. I don’t think they oppose romance, but they are more worried about grades. But then again, I’m kinda asexual so I never bother with romance anyways.

If I was gay, I think my mother would, not really shame the gay aspect, but more like the “what about my grandchildren” type of stuff, and be disappointed, and would probably try to use inheritances as leverage (I assume, since this part is hypothetical). Like… being “gay” isn’t really a “sin”, but “continuing the bloodline” is very important somehow, everyone in Asia is obsessed about it. So yeah, on thay aspect, they’ll be disappointed. But I think they’ll still be happy I have a “gay-friend”, they’ll just assume I’ll “eventually become heterosexual again” and this is just gonna become another normal friend.

As for if I was trans… yea no… they’ll think it’s 变态 and a mental illness and would constantly try to “cure” me of it. Or probably disown me for being “broken”. This is less of anti-trans, more like ableism. I mean I have depression and they already treat me like I’m sort of “broken” and they are talking of leaving me out of inheritances lol.

my dad would lean against my door

Creepy, not normal at all.

he picked the lock of my door

He’s fucked up in the head. No one does this.

he said “nothing” with an unsettling smile

He’s a pervert. You’re not.

he could prove it by revealing

He’s a psycho, no one does this. Ever.

my older brother got into my journal

Another psycho.

“God told me to do it.”

Yep, psycho.

I’m sorry you had to live through this but it’s not a normal behavior. I wish you the best for the future without them though because I know that it can destroy someone.

toiletobserver Nov 15

The closest my friend’s mom ever got was yelling at him as we went out for the evening, “don’t be stupid Jeffrey! Use a condom!”

mushroommunk Nov 15

Grew up in very similar hell. It’s way more common than people think but also not appropriate at all.

I’ve since completely cut off the toxic members of my family and never been happier.

buddascrayon Nov 15

My hot take: your father is angry you aren’t gay because he secretly is and has had to deny this his entire life due to his conservative ideology.

By just reading the title I can say that you grew up in hell. Now let me read your description to see if it was normal hell or super hell.

Edit: So it looks like you grew up in normal hell. Which doesn’t diminish the impact it has on you. I personally grew up in normal hell but had friends that grew up in super hell.

There’s probably a lot you have yet to process. I still randomly have shit come up two and half decades later and realize how abnormal it was. Also fuck your dad and your brother. Both them are assholes that are probably repressed dipshits. I hope you can get past it and not let it fuck with your life too much.

Phoenixz Nov 15

Yeah no, you grew up in hell and nothing about that is normal.

Family you don’t choose, friends you do choose. you don’t owe your family anything, find good friends that will love you for what and how you are.

It is okay to cut off toxic family

It might be healthier for you to break contact with your family or at least make contact the bare minimum (Christmas, birthdays). That’s some fucked up parenting. You leave your teenager alone in their room when the door is locked. You can try to talk about stuff with teenagers, voice opinions about sexuality and all that, but sneakily opening that locked door is some seriously wrong shit.

yea sorry about your hell bro

CanadaPlus Nov 15

Even in conservative households, that’s weird. If your dad had blown up right there about the sinful things happining in the room, I’d get it more. What he actually did was inexplicable. And the older brother thing is just awful.

Since it was two incidents total, I won’t go straight for hell, though. Like maybe it was but I’d need more information.

Absolutely. This is not just some bible-thumping “you will burn for your sins if you don’t repent” stuff, otherwise the logical reaction would have been to have a serious conversation on the spot. This is someone collecting blackmail material in his own imaginary world where things are what the voices tell them they are.

Run, don’t walk. Seriously.

CanadaPlus Nov 15

Or maybe that was his plan, but he chickened out once it got too real? You’d expect it would still change things if he was at all homophobic, though. As it is, he acted like it didn’t happen until he thought he was being lied to and decided to pull it back out.

That is what I mean. Imagine being an otherwise decent person who just happens to strongly believe in the whole conservative-christian system of values. Wouldn’t you want to act on your son being potentially gay?

Or even if you convince yourself that it is better to sweep it under the rug for the sake of peace or something, wouldn’t that be something you take into the grave? And, secretly feel relieved if your son “came out” as straight to you? After all, your own son apparently managed to get back to the “right path”.

I am not a psychologist, and I believe that it is not appropriate to diagnose people who didn’t ask for a diagnosis. But the father has some serious issues, and for his own safety and sanity, I can only tell OP to run and CYA as best as possible in case the family lashes out.

EponymousBosh Nov 16

The odds of these two deeply weird incidents being isolated in a case like this is about 1%

CanadaPlus Nov 16

Eh, depends what you mean by isolated. I’ve had weird incidents with otherwise fine people. And I’ve definitely ended up doing things that were hard to explain for whatever reason. I’m guessing the brother is generally problematic, though, because that was multiple consecutive decisions driven by thinly-masked cruelty.

EponymousBosh Nov 17

It’s specifically the fact that it’s family that makes it hard for me to buy that it’s isolated (hence “in this case”). It’s possible for sure, but you don’t usually get “my dad picklocked my bedroom door to try and catch me jerking off” without a shitload of other family weirdness.

HubertManne Nov 15

Its not uncommon for kids to not really have privacy but they let you have a lock on your door and then picked it???? That is weird.

No, this is not normal. Or at least my upbringing was nothing like this. I grew up catholic (until 12) and my extended family is fairly conservative. While I did fall into the cishet paradigm, no one was spying on me and looking for evidence I wasn’t.

Is there anything you didnt share that would explain further why they did what they did? Can you think of any reason they would suspect you?

Mugita Sokio Nov 15

Homosexuality can be, and usually is, the gateway into paedophilia. Some homosexuals don’t do this (as they know it’s wrong), but it happens on average from what I researched into this. Why your father believed you were homosexual instead of being heterosexual is beyond me, though I think he wanted you to be a paedo so he could have you railroaded… even if you never wanted to speak with minors in the first place.

And your brother saying that “God told me to do it”… that’s shifting blame away from the real reason: I think he could have told your father about it, keeping his confirmation bias right there. This sort of excuse is something Catholics would do… and devout ones at that I think.

Were you Catholic growing up, by chance?

Then why are there more straight religious leaders convicted of child molestation than gay people? It sounds like your research lacked any actual data.

Mugita Sokio Nov 16

They might have been homosexual themselves, while acting straight for “muh insert deity here”. There are homosexual conservatives and liberals (both sides do this), and actually want to normalize it, so that’s why there’s paedophilia on both sides.

Yes, I’m sure it’s the more complicated explanation that requires more assumptions rather than the simpler explanation that you’re just wrong.

Mugita Sokio Nov 16

Ockham’s Razor doesn’t work here, nor does it work most of the time. The reason why a mod removed some of my comments on this post, despite my opinion being what it is, was because I didn’t use Ockham’s Razor (on top of that, the mod basically admitting that I told the truth).