Chris 🦑
llewelly@sturmsucht
arguably it's more like chickens holding events at a tyson foods factory.
John Rockefeller@sturmsucht Shout out to @dosgameclub for their active IRC channel!
Aurin Azadî@sturmsucht This! Same with marginalized people on Facebook, Instagram, X, etc.
tnt@sturmsucht I tend to agree but also faced with the fact the alternative suck ...
@tnt agree to disagree here. If you don't like Matrix, there is stoat.chat or honestly any forum software out there to self-host. NodeBB, flarum, etc.
I think support really doesn't need to be on messengers for communication. It honestly shouldn't use them, because you can't index and search those answers through search engines.
Rexo the Trans Bus 🏳️🌈🏳️⚧️🚌@tnt @sturmsucht if either Revolt/Stoat or Matrix were trustworthy and good I would wholeheartedly endorse this but as is I understand why people are drawn to Discord (even if I don't think it's ideal)
@tnt @sturmsucht to be clear, my issue w/Matrix is more about the actual functionality (the clients don't really seem to be there yet, moderation is... lmfao), and as someone who was in the (then) Revolt team I would not personally trust them to not just become Yet Another Startup.
what's the point in upending everything and moving to a platform that either doesn't have various features (including "not being spammed with CSAM") or run by people who also aren't trustworthy?
also I never actually said Discord was good!!! I literally just said I understand why people are drawn to it. I desperately want a good FOSS replacement but beyond DMs/groups there isn't really a decent replacement yet which is incredibly sad to me
what's the point in upending everything and moving to a platform that either doesn't have various features (including "not being spammed with CSAM") or run by people who also aren't trustworthy?
also I never actually said Discord was good!!! I literally just said I understand why people are drawn to it. I desperately want a good FOSS replacement but beyond DMs/groups there isn't really a decent replacement yet which is incredibly sad to me
@tnt @sturmsucht fair - certainly documentation/known issues should be on a forum or similar. Discourse is pretty good :3
Lisa@sturmsucht Same could be said for Lefty groups supporting BDS but then promoting it on WhatsApp and Facebook
@Lisa_48 That's a different thing in my opinion. It sounds weird, but it doesn't help to e.g. scream into the fediverse that it's a good alternative to big tech social media. These people already know. That message must be seen on big tech platforms. For Lefty groups: basically same. But even then you can be a Lefty and still use big tech. Even if that feels off from our side given their owners and their power over algorithms.
@Lisa_48 For Discord that's basically the private decision of a project or company to use the platform. It's a chat system not a social media platform.
@sturmsucht Well I'd have to say my experience would make me disagree. I've seen people scream at people for buying a Costa on a Palestine march b/c it violates the BDS movement; groups like YourParty exclusively communicate on WhatsApp - exclusively being a key word here. Keeping in mind the CEO of WhatsApp (not Meta, but WhatsApp specifically) donated millions to help Israel and in a public appearance literally laughed at people doing BDS. Sounds like vegans serving steak to me.
hiphopheaven@Lisa_48 @sturmsucht what alternative way do you suggest. The reality is that you can't implement bds completely. I think someone who using meta apps responsibly but boycott stuffs like coca cola sodas has more impact for bds then the opposite
@hiphopheaven @Lisa_48 sorry, but what do you mean with responsibly?
@sturmsucht @Lisa_48 not clicking on any ads and rage bailting promoted posts. Not posting anything too personal, using it for imforming about serious worldwide issues
@hiphopheaven @Lisa_48 I honestly think you can't use Meta apps responsibly. They are not intended to be used in any way that is not misuse. It's the sheer number of microseconds you spend looking at an ad without scrolling that gives them a hint about what you prefer. It's a (fascist-driven) algorithm that feeds you emotional content to get you hooked on the app - and does not inform you about serious worldwide issues. Meta is not about news. It's about abuse.
@sturmsucht @Lisa_48 both facebook and instagram has chronologicial feeds that nobody use. There is even an extenaion that allows to remove ads completely. People has still the ability to self control it's not easy but possible. People who fall to the trap are atill responsible for their decisions. I would like to hear the alternative how to promote to the mainstream the fediverse outaide of where moat people are
@hiphopheaven @Lisa_48 Nobody uses these things bc Meta does everything to hide them. They do everything they can to say 'it's there' but make it extra hard to use. The ad removal is just that. It removes ads. Not recommendations. It doesn't stop tracking you and what you are looking at. It doesn't stop selling your realtime location.
Sure, you have to promote alternatives there. But don't fall into the trap that you can responsible handle their apps. Don't install them. Use the webinterface.
@sturmsucht @Lisa_48 the extensions allow to remove recommendation too.
People lack curiosity, are lazy and are too absorbed in algorithm it may be because of the apps design but it doesn't remove people responsability, you are responsible of your actions regardless of the external influence. Especially on facebook groups the filter to new is very clear yet most people filter by popular
If i do not interact with any recommended posts and ads how my data is going to generate money to facebook?
@sturmsucht Not really about the 'still using it', that's fair enough, but it's the sheer arrogance of refusing to accept there's any other options combined with the decision to use a chat platform like whatsapp by BDS campaigners when there are perfectly workable alternatives you can easily download and install as an alternative - because it's also a chat, not social media.
@Lisa_48 ah, yeah, got you. That's a thing I also don't understand at all.
I've a friend who posts spiritual, anti-billionaire, grasroots-movment, overcome-"the-system" stuff on IG, but when I ask why they are not switching, they say that there are no alternatives. Even when I point to them, they stay on IG.
People stay inactive and avoid alternatives, because they hope the existing might get better some day. A couch revolution with no energy involved.
@sturmsucht couldn't agree more. I can't help but think it's just a fear of being alone. It's not as easy to rebuild in places like this, it's not easy to not just do what everyone else has gotten comfortable to be doing.
In the meantime, all we can do is try eh?
Love your posts, and glad to have found you on here and look forward to your future posts
Apan@sturmsucht Yes, very annoying.
DarkRat@sturmsucht I now see regular companies having support discords.
Which feels like a laser tag arena where only suit and tie are allowed
loebas@sturmsucht Discord is one of the platforms i want to go poof. And that is telegram included, since there are also a lot of projects that offer support exclusivley trough telegram.
At least discord does not require a phone number (yet).
Laberpferd@loebas @sturmsucht
Discord DOES demand a phone number, at least for some people including me
I tried to sign up a year ago, and already during the process things got stuck with the message "we detected suspicious activity, give us a phone number we can sent a SMS to verify you"
Maybe they got triggered by the fact i am using Linux as operating system, with a seperate Firefox profile disconnected from other activities and sending "do not Track"
@Laberpferd @sturmsucht
Some guilds may require this too, thats why i putted "yet" between parenthesis. At least we can still make alt accounts
Some guilds may require this too, thats why i putted "yet" between parenthesis. At least we can still make alt accounts
@loebas @sturmsucht
No, it happened right when i tried to sign up to Discord at all, before i could at least try to sign up to the Guilds that my want-to-be social circle presses me as their online home
No, it happened right when i tried to sign up to Discord at all, before i could at least try to sign up to the Guilds that my want-to-be social circle presses me as their online home
@Laberpferd @sturmsucht Yikes, that is not looking that great!
@loebas @sturmsucht
I think thats their intention to create peer pressure of "switch off these privacy setting, Discord works smooth and without hassle for everyone else"
I think thats their intention to create peer pressure of "switch off these privacy setting, Discord works smooth and without hassle for everyone else"
Ingmar Rieger@sturmsucht Don‘t get me started. The ASWF (Academy Software Foundation, subgroup(?) of Linux Foundation), hosting a ton of OS projects in the realm of image modification, rendering etc.
Chat is on Slack, Code is GitHub and Meetings on Zoom. Guess there is more tools me would generally not want to touch.
(And and btw. haven‘t signed a CLA so can‘t really collaborate, as they require my home address or me lying about it. From a foundation around OS that needs cookie information. Which is something a serious OS project would not need anyway.)
hazel 
@sturmsucht it would be better if half of the open source projects werent fascist tech with only "let's keep tech apolitical" as a cover
物灵@sturmsucht 오픈소스 소프트웨어에 디스코드를 사용하지 말라고 요구하는 것은 鞠躬盡瘁死而後已와 같은 경직된 태도이며, 이는 프로젝트 목표 실현에 해롭습니다.
https://wildgoose1950.pixnet.net/blog/post/5678890
https://wildgoose1950.pixnet.net/blog/post/5678890
tyil@matling
아니, 그냥 빌어먹을 멍청이처럼 굴지 마. 근데 네가 ‘자유 소프트웨어’ 대신 '오픈 소스'라고 부르니, 실제 사용자 자유는 전혀 신경 안 쓰는 모양이군. 대기업의 무급 하수인 노릇만 하고 싶다면, 네 입장이 이해가 가. 네가 속한 트위터로 돌아가는 게 어때?
Nobody speaks Korean on International platforms so I hope the message got translated well. tl;dr: Don't be a fucking cuck to corporate platforms and think about what you're trying to do for a minute or two.
아니, 그냥 빌어먹을 멍청이처럼 굴지 마. 근데 네가 ‘자유 소프트웨어’ 대신 '오픈 소스'라고 부르니, 실제 사용자 자유는 전혀 신경 안 쓰는 모양이군. 대기업의 무급 하수인 노릇만 하고 싶다면, 네 입장이 이해가 가. 네가 속한 트위터로 돌아가는 게 어때?
Nobody speaks Korean on International platforms so I hope the message got translated well. tl;dr: Don't be a fucking cuck to corporate platforms and think about what you're trying to do for a minute or two.
Halla Rempt@sturmsucht The thing is... There can be discord thingies (refuse to call it a server...) that look like they're official, but completely are NOT.
The #krita discord place is big, busy and the people managing it do a good job (I think), but it's not affiliated with the Krita project or foundaiton.
For Krita users, the place to hang out is krita-artists.org, for developers... Our IRC channel, #krita.
Martin Haſeneyer@sturmsucht We are currently in a discussion to get a user group away from there, but what could I recommend? I am not deep enough into Discord but learned that neither IRC nor Signal are considered as appropriate replacement.
Dźwiedziu@sturmsucht
Also if your documentation is on Discord, then your project isn't documented.
Also if your documentation is on Discord, then your project isn't documented.
Hugo 雨果@sturmsucht I have this weird Déjà vu of having posted literally this years ago.
@whynothugo it's so weird, right? looks like nothing changed.
Lars Wikman@sturmsucht getting adoption for anything else is such a pain unfortunately.
Like do you want to have conversations with people about the project or do you want the ideal venue and get a tenth or hundredth of the attendance.
I should be more on IRC I suppose. But I haven't had the habit in a couple of decades.
First Element room I wanted to join just hung for eternity and never resolved.
@lawik weird assumption that discord is the place where the majority is.
The barrier for using a forum is so damn low - especially compared with Discord. AND you can actually index it so that you get less support requests because people FIND the answer for what they were looking for.
As I said, Element is not the only alternative. I think it's still a good one as they have put A LOT of effort into it over the last 2 years. But I still prefer a forum for the reasons mentioned.
@sturmsucht
Is it a weird assumption or is it based on my experience of where I've seen present-day projects successfully build active exchange?
Tiny sample size but I know it is hard to build an active group anywhere and picking a tool many people already have lowers the barrier. Discord is extremely widely used outside of open source. I can get OSS die-hards on IRC. But I doubt I'd get a newly minted programming student as easily.
I don't want to argue for Discord being the right choice. I think the analogy you wrote that I responded to is accurate. But the challenge of the choice of tool is real.
I do like forums. They are not the same function for many people as a chat. The Elixir ecosystem which is where I hang out have a forum that is an awesome resource. It is not a good place for most people to socially connect with each other around projects or throwing in the quick questions.
Outside of the help/questions the forum format attracts people with a lot of time and desire to argue.
The function of Discord could be handled by IRC or Element. But the low barrier to entry and high degree of actually working plays into it a lot in my mind.
@lawik I see. It's a difference if it's "just" support or basically collab in development.
But your argument for Discord here is the same why people stay at big tech: Everyone is there.
And I personally think these costs of convenience have become too high in a world where fascist tech bros provide the tools to catch you off the street.
Also, if someone is really interested in having a discussion with you about your product, they should be willing to use your more private channel.
@sturmsucht yeah, fair. For support I'd have liked more places to use .. email :D
But yeah, it weighs on me. The state of things suck.
I wonder if Signal has enough traction that they could break things up assuming they built more threading and such.
I gotta try Element for something again.
Being vegan I do often make inconvenient choices but I prefer to do that for myself more than for others.
@lawik As people who know better, we should be more pro-active. And I don't speak about forcing every stranger to go vegan (vegan myself here), but not cooking meat for others when it's your own party
Thought about Signal as well. No threads there (yet?), but also in Discord people don't understand how to use them. 🤷♂️
@sturmsucht threads in Discord are weird. Kind of smart that they fade. But threads in Slack are more well-used and obvious. Maybe people will bother each other about it at work presumably. People learn it somehow. Sometimes.
I think Signal has the mindshare at least. And it works well.
crabmusket@lawik @sturmsucht *cries in Zulip*
@crabmusket @sturmsucht I tried to join the Changelog Zulip when they left Slack.. Maybe if I was more motivated but that app is confusing for a casual relationship..
Leeloo@lawik @sturmsucht
Agreed on email.
Who are these people who have Discord but not email?
And if they really are that many, why do OSS projects need to force users onto Discord instead of having both?
(I recently ran into a similar problem with an OSS project that refuse to take bug reports from people without a Microsoft Github account - and then discovered that someone else had reported the same bug on Github 2½ years ago).
LR@sturmsucht we originally started out with IRC but one of our contributors made the convincing case that the discord audience is much bigger, so i decided that we expand to there. and the assertion was correct: the audience *is* bigger.
i personally would prefer a p2p clone of discord but apparently we're not there yet. i'm not exactly sure what the holdup is.
@lritter well, it makes more sense for a game dev to be on discord than for any other company - especially security related and companies that proclaim their foss / anti-big-tech background or purpose.
But still, you can choose to not have discord as your only support platform.
In the end it comes to this: If we use discord we contribute our and our users' personal data to discords's revenue while ignoring secure alternatives because everyone else also jumps off the bridge.
We can do better.
@sturmsucht it's not just a game; there's also OSS tech being developed.
but sure. i totally agree. orgs can only meet people where they are though. and when they're in the wrong place, we'll meet them in the wrong place, because it has greater value than chasing purity for its own sake.
if we had more market pull though... if people came to us wherever we are ... i'd certainly change the rules.
cos@lritter @sturmsucht pure P2P is difficult. You for example don't get messages unless your device is on and app running.. For that you'd need some kind of storage & metadata servers but then it becomes more like Matrix or other federated messenger.
@cos @sturmsucht a pinning service is a lot more comfortable to use (and shard) than one with a federated network
Alex@lritter probably could with this project: https://libp2p.io/
Only gripe I have with it is that the devs can't be bothered to give C or a C++ implentation the same love as the Rust implentation, but you'd just need a way to handle new nodes connecting to peers which can be done with either setting up your own node on like a vps to help handle this or use public nodes used by other projects. Also implent ICE and DHT within each node...
definitely doable in this day and age.
@sturmsucht
@leeloo @sturmsucht again, not really up to us. we have a mailing list. it's tumbleweeds on there.