「黃家駒 Wong Ka Kui」 | (aka: 鳳凰院 凶真 Hououin Kyouma)Do you think school uniforms are a form of authoritarianism?
ℕ𝕖𝕞𝕠I always hated it growing up, too. My school didn’t even have a uniform, only a dress code, and I hated that, too.
But my kids go to a school with a uniform, and now I can see the advantages:
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this school subsidizes the uniforms heavily, even to the point of giving them away outright to students in need, so it represents a form of clothing that is affordable for all
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kids can’t fight with parents about what they wear to school, because it’s predetermined
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every kid wears the same thing, which helps smooth out class-indicators: kids don’t get bullied for wearing hand-me-downs or unfashionable clothes because everyone wears the same thing
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makes it very easy to determine who is supposed to be on campus and who is not; similarly, since the school has a big emphasis on outside-the-classroom learning, makes it very easy to identify students out on fieldwork
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saves me money since the uniforms are unisex and my son can wear the hand-me-downs of his older sisters
And to address your criticism: Yes, uniforms tend to promote group cohesion but that’s not always a bad thing. It encourages collaboration over competition, for example.
PhobosAnomalyPoint 3 has always been a great equaliser. I grew up in a household that was tight for money, and I never felt that my school wear defined my “class”, quite the opposite.
Now I’m older and am in a comparatively fortunate position financially, I’m happy to kit out my kids in a uniform. I don’t really want them flashing brand names or in an arms race to look the most fashionable, and I don’t want the less fortunate folk in the class to feel left behind.
If a uniform is plain and inexpensive, I think the positives outweigh the negatives.
As a parent of 2 kids under 10, at this age they don’t care about brands. The school uniforms are much more expensive than any t shirts or shorts or track pants from Kmart or bigW (Aussie retailers). Poorer kids still get hand me downs and second hand, whereas richer kids get brand new. Most kids are only-child these days, so the concept of hand me downs is less prevalent within a family.
For teens, I can understand that point, but for teens I think self expression and exploring identity are key parts of growing up.
Parts of growing up that are intentionally suppressed
I guess it depends on the strictness of a dress code but theres usually ways to express and explore even with a set clothing expectation.
My oldest is a senior in highschool. From what I have observed, appearance – especially for teenage girls – is less about self expression and more about seeking approval from other girls. Clothing is entirely a status symbol.
There’s often a few girls who are the “trend setters”, a much larger group of “followers” that basically look like carbon copies of one another, and yet another group that doesn’t follow the latest “trend” because they either can’t afford to or (much less often) don’t care.
My daughter is obsessed with looks, as are most of her peers. Trying desperately to fit in because she’s not yet mature enough to realize that it doesn’t matter if all the other girls “like” her. It only really matters if she likes herself.
I’ve told her, only half joking, that she will know a guy is good boyfriend material when he asks her which books she’s read lately.
AkasazhAbout the class indicators thing: don’t people find a way around that by wearing expensive watches, jewelry or accessories?
Usually people find a way to value signal imho.
In my experienfe they just brag about how rich their parents are lmao.
I was vaguely aware of them being a thing elsewhere as a kid. Back then someone even thought they were cool because of Harry Potter films. Never thought of it as authoritarianism, just pointless.
But now that you say it, placing pointless restrictions to make people look the same is kind of authoritarian.
I suppose it probably seems strange to an outsider but in a country where it’s the norm for every school, it didn’t feel like that to me at all. I see it more as an equaliser? In a way I also kind of miss not having to decide what to wear every day.
Honestly, my main concern about school uniforms is that I think they ought to be standardised and subsidised, because the expense can sometimes be a problem.
Counterpoint: Americans would say the same - “I suppose it probably seems strange to an outsider but in a country where it’s the norm for every school, it didn’t feel like that to me at all.” - about pledging their undying loyalty every morning to the flag on the wall of every single classroom starting at the age of 6.
Not to say that it’s the same thing at all, indoctrination on that scale is completely different from a freaking school uniform, but the base is the same - it doesn’t seem weird because it’s what you were told was normal.
As an adult, I can see some good arguments for uniforms in this thread, but as a kid, I stopped saying the Pledge of Allegiance in middle school and swore that nobody could make me wear a tie like my dad had to for school. One of the big things that bothered me about school dress codes as I got older was the inherent misogyny on display. Some rules from my high school dress code, for example:
During Spring/Summer, boys may wear t-shirts and shorts. Girls must wear pants or skirts. Skirts must be below the knee. Girls are allowed to wear t-shirts, but only if the sleeves are at least 4 inches long and must be a unisex crew neck shirt. Shirts with a v neck or that show the collarbone are too revealing and are not allowed.
Also in the US is the issue that school uniforms are universally a private school thing, and so create a divide of elitism as a clear signal of those whose parents are wealthy enough to send their kids to a private school vs kids who go to public schools. Those divides start at home, though, and I don’t know how much a school uniform does to deprogram that kind of rhetoric from your parents and their friends.
Americans would say the same … about pledging their undying loyalty every morning to the flag on the wall of every single classroom starting at the age of 6.
Except they don’t. I and everyone I’ve ever discussed it with think it’s weird as hell.
I don’t either, I think it’s super weird and creepy, but most people that I’ve talked to about it have never even thought about it before, and the people around my parents’ age consider it “patriotic.”
Also in the US is the issue that school uniforms are universally a private school thing
As a non-American who watched The Wire, I know that is not true. So I looked it up and apparently 19% of US public schools use school uniforms (risen from 3% in the mid 1990s). Source: https://www.uniformmarket.com/statistics/school-uniform-statistics
This makes sense as I was in school before 2010, so my experience would’ve been from before more schools started adopting them. And my dad would’ve probably been in school in the 50s, so when he was wearing a school uniform with a tie everyday, it was absolutely a rich private school thing.
CerebralHawksFortunately they didn’t start doing uniforms where I was until after I left school. The reasoning our school district used was that income disparity was a form of bullying and kids whose parents couldn’t afford designer clothes and shoes should not be constantly exposed to kids whose parents never had to worry about a paycheck as evidenced through their kids. Of course, they also didn’t like certain T-shirts (like those featuring bands like Metallica, Megadeth, and Iron Maiden).
It’s fine if the school provides the uniforms and offers a subsidy on their care and upkeep (or covers it entirely, like uniforms are traded for clean ones at the end of each week). Less so if the parents have to actually buy them. Because then the problem is being shifted, since the rich kids will have the same uniform but in higher quality. Income disparity can’t really be hidden and I don’t really think that was the actual goal (though some PTA mom probably brought it up, making it a convenient excuse).
Income disparity can’t really be hidden
This falls under false dichotomy. Just because you can’t remove it 100% doesn’t mean it can’t be reduced significantly
Things a common grade school essay question which I think we’re helping OP answer
Nah, a kid would just chatgpt it these days.
I’m just remember how much I hated teachers and school admins because they called the gestapo on me once after I defended myself against bullying.
What does that have to do with uniforms bigsad?
AatubeI always thought that they required them because some bureaucrat had a fetish because boy did the people demanding that I wore the school uniform obsessed with staring at my body while I wore it.
I mean, there does seem to be A LOT of people that have weird feelings about the stereotypical Japanese schoolgirl uniform. Really creepy. Wouldn't surprise me to hear about similar things happening around the world.
I think it’s more of an extension of the teenager fetish. School uniforms are something only school-aged children and teens wear regularly, so it’s become a trait associated with them.
There’s also some scenarios that are less problematic (at least imo). Some people have a general uniform fetish (cops, nurses, etc). And sometimes couples that want to roleplay themselves as students.
That being said, yeah there’s definitely some creepy fucks that can’t stop staring at teenagers. But I don’t think getting rid of student uniforms would put a noticable dent in it. That ship has already sailed. Keep in mind that french-style maid dresses aren’t really a thing anymire, and people still fetishize that. I doubt the school uniform fetish will go away even if every school in the world did away with them
DaMonsterKneesMy post history and reputation will back that I am left as fuck, but I love uniforms because I hate clothes and all the stupid ass stipulations society has purposely and inadvertently put on them. Spending any more than 5 secs selecting what’s gonna cover me for the day is already too long.
Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate all the ideological arguments made against them, and don’t counter them, I simply yearn to live in a world where we’re ALL on the same team and working together, and what one wears means fuck and all.
Then we should work towards the goal that every kid has enough so they can wear whatever they want and it being accepted by the others rather then going the shortcut with uniforms and robing the kids, who want to express them self through cloths, of that choice.
and it being accepted by the others
You can change policy, but it’s extremely hard to change people. Burying your head in the sand and pouting that people should be the ones to change is going to achieve nothing.
I love uniforms because I hate clothes and all the stupid ass stipulations society has purposely and inadvertently put on them.
But uniforms still reflect the social expectations. I don’t trust the designers of the cloth to reflect everyone’s needs. My clothing for example needs to be flexible and durable enough for me to climb a tree and fall back down without worry.
Spending any more than 5 secs selecting what’s gonna cover me for the day is already too long.
There are 2 questions I ask myself when selecting cloth for the day:
Yes, as is a lot if stuff schools do
Not at all. On the contrary, I found them quite liberating, for 2 main reasons:
- not having to decide what to wear every day
- I was in a British private school, where students came from upper middle class to upper class backgrounds. A lot of the really rich students were shallow, superficial, and cruel. If we didn’t have uniforms we would have had a serious bullying problem against those who couldn’t afford to wear high end/designer brands.
The only downside is that we had to pay for the uniforms, and they were quite expensive compared to the awful materials they were made of. I had 3 sets on rotation.
I agree completely.
Equality is NOT the same as teaching people to be the same as everyone else. From what I understand, the intent is to discourage bullying, because: How can you make fun of someone for their clothes, if you’re wearing the same thing? But as soon as they leave school and there is no global dress code, they are pre programmed to consider anything outside the norm as “wrong” or “punishable”.
The ONE argument for uniforms I could get behind is that they ensure that the poor kids are dressed just as well as the rich kids, but as far as I know, those uniforms aren’t typically provided to the students, and you’d still end up with some kids in designer uniforms, and others in thrift store finds and hand me downs.
I work in schools. Pre-uniforms, there were so so many girls who arrived in appropriate clothes and then removed the top layer. Children shouldnt wear clothes to school that are more revealing than what you’d see in a bar. Social media teaches them that the goal is attention and it doesn’t matter if it’s positive or negative.
YarrMateyI was actually going to say I hated how misogynistic teachers were at school when it came to any dress code. They hyper focused on what girls were wearing, were their straps too narrow, were their shorts/skirts too high, etc. I have had teachers harass me about my clothes during my entire schooling starting from elementary school. We are drilled into us that our bodies are too revealing, scandalous, and dirty, so we should be ashamed. But then you become an adult and no one really gives a fuck what you wear. The only place that cares is where you end up working, and that can really be anything ranging from a fast food uniform to a suit to whatever you want to wear, etc. I’m not sure what your age is, but schools have made girls feel responsible for how other boys and men feel about their clothes since before social media. It’s our fault for being a “distraction” and ruining the learning environment. I had a male teacher fixate on me at one point, he said he turned his a/c on 24/7 to force all the girls to cover up but when I wouldn’t since I liked the a/c then it became his mission to stop lessons to tell me to cover up aka put a jacket on and make a big deal if I did not have one that day. Your comment reminded me of that teacher, and how much I was slut-shamed because my tank tops revealed my shoulders - gasp!
No, it is not all these words.
When all the kids are dressed equally, they are (partially) freed from the pressure of modern fashion life, vanity, comparing their parents’ money etc.
missingnoThere are valid arguments for and against, but I really don't think the word 'authoritarianism' is at all applicable here.
Definitely applicable.
Entire atmosphere feels a lot more weirder because everyone is forced to wear the same thing. Reminds me of when I was in China, where they forced little kids to wear the little red scarf, which symbolized communism.
I think is preparation for a white collar job. Everyone in the office usually use a uniform and there is nothing wrong with that. I feel like it is an exaggeration
Exactly, preparing for wage slavery, by re-enforcing conformity and “don’t you dare step out of line” from a young age. Authoritarianism.
So you want everyone in society to be rogue and fuck the system that keeps things moving? I will never understand this mindset dude.
LibertyLizard“If we don’t force everyone to wear the same clothes the fabric of society will collapse!”
Is that what you’re saying?
Tbf, it is about as valid as saying school uniforms are part of a plot to make us all slaves.
It really isn’t. You don’t think our near total control of the ability of children to make decisions about their lives has any effect on how they behave when they get older? Nor that this enforced system of obedience has intended consequences on those children when they become adults?
I think school uniforms don’t. It is incredibly difficult to move the needle on, for example, math test scores. This is something we actually care about, and which we dump billions of dollars per year into with essentially no improvement in results. If it is that hard to get kids to learn math, I doubt there is any significant effect of saying “hey, wear this shirt”.
Conforming to society does not equal authoritarianism
It could be if one is forced to conform.
I’m very anti-authoritarian, but man I wish we had uniforms in school where I grew up. At the time I would have hated it, but in hindsight it would have saved me a lot of bullying. Equality != authoritarian in this case.
They’re definitely a form of oppression.
I’d say school in general is a form of authoritarianism. Take a look at US schools compared to schools in North Korea, and they are extremely similar.
Idk about North Korea but I went to school in mainland China and I definitely notice a lot of similarities.
China does a ceremony where they raise the flag ceremonies every week and sing national anthem every day, they do this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Pioneers_of_China
The US also does national anthems and pledge of allegiance.
Very similar rituals. Both teaches obedience. To mold people into wage slaves, to always obey your future employers.
My view is the right to dress or undress as one desires is a right of basic human expression so yes I would describe this as a minor form of authoritarianism.
Not inherently, but I went to a school where the enforcement of the uniform code was overly Draconian. For example, there was a rule that boots were not allowed, so at the beginning of term, they had students line up and pull their trousers legs up so that an assistant headteacher could measure how high the shoes went (because that was one of the ways they defined shoes Vs boots). My step-brother’s new school shoes were 1cm too tall, and they sent him home with a note saying that boots weren’t permitted.
My step-mum called up the school and went ballistic at them for it, refusing to buy another pair of shoes. This was a socioeconomically poor area in which many families would struggle to afford one pair of shoes at the beginning of the year, so this assholish enforcement of the rules was absurd. If you can only tell that the shoes aren’t permitted when a student pulls up their trouser legs, what is the problem?
I think that some of the logic behind the strict uniform code was that there was a perception that higher performing schools in better areas would have nicer school uniforms, and I wonder whether they were trying to work backwards from that, as if maintaining the uniform code could defy all the socioeconomic adversity that families in this area faced.
Aside from the excessive enforcement, I like the uniform code. It can mask income disparities within the student body if everyone is wearing the same thing. I felt insecure about how poor my family was, and it would’ve been worse without the uniform, I think. I also liked not having to think about what to wear, and it seemed to make it easier for my mum to strategise laundry to ensure we always had clean uniform to wear.
I also liked wearing a blazer because it meant I always had reliable pockets. Important things like my phone and my bus pass went in my inside pocket, which had a zip. Then there were two large exterior pocket which were good for pens and the like. It made it easier to avoid losing or forgetting things.
I think a happy medium would be possible. School uniforms could act as a blank canvas on which students could experiment with other forms of self expression.
Soccer uniforms have to be same color too it’s not “authoritarianism.”
Unity isn’t always a good thing.
Americans had “unity” after 9/11, so they rally behind someone that would be violating international laws.
Unity in terms of internationlization would be positive, but most of the time, its just nationalism.
Americans had “unity” after 9/11
Uh, no we didn’t. Source: am American, lived through that period.
Yes we had a brief period of unity (and solidarity with NYC) following 9/11, but as soon as the American War Machine woke up, my country was intensely divided.
Also I am assuming muslim Americans were still left out even on that small bit of solidarity as if they were responsible for it.
🇰 🌀 🇱 🇦 🇳 🇦 🇰 🇮 School uniforms enforced that everyone has to wear arbitrarily vs uniforms to differentiate the two teams in a spectator sport.
As farxas i know, main motivation is to reduce mobbing but it doesn’t work like that.