If you follow the field of software engineering (both industrial and academic) and like spicy writing, then do yourself a favour and read https://arxiv.org/abs/2510.24483 .

It's a wonderful, if depressing, read.

The Divine Software Engineering Comedy -- Inferno: The Okinawa Files

In June 2024 I co-organized the FUture of Software Engineering symposium in Okinawa, Japan. Me, Andrian Marcus, Takashi Kobayashi and Shinpei Hayashi were general chairs, Nicole Novielli, Kevin Moran, Yutaro Kashiwa and Masanari Kondo were program chairs, some members of my group, Carmen Armenti, Stefano Campanella, Roberto Minelli, were the tables, can't have a room with only chairs, after all. We invited a crowd of people to discuss what future software engineering has. FUSE became a 3-day marathon on whether there is actually a future at all for SE. This essay is a slightly dark take about what I saw at that event, very loosely based on the discussions that took place, adding some healthy sarcasm and cynicism, the intellectual salt and pepper I never seem to run out of. I listened to the brilliant people who gathered to talk about where we're headed, and distilled three nightmares headed in our direction: software makers who don't know what they're doing, but get the job done anyway, a field moving so fast it can't remember its own lessons, and technologies multiplying like rabbits in Spring. So, let's start. The future, eh? The future of software engineering looks like a car crash in slow motion: you can see it coming but you can't look away. The thing is...

arXiv.org

@JacquesC2

> Never stayed up until three in the morning debugging memory leaks. [..] They work nine to five, no overtime, no weekend hackathons.

Pointing to these things as flaws made me lose all interest in reading further.

@jaror You may be missing an important point about the Patriarchy here, though.

Wizards staying up late is not all about bad work-life balance. That's a relatively recent development, for some stupid reasons that you're probably aware of.

In general, the sort of people who are good at programming have great enthusiasm for it. With great enthusiasm tends to come a period of life of intense practice, and one of the ways this has, in the Western cultures of about the last sixty years or so, manifested itself is, well, staying up late.

A part of the equation is, being good at creative programming tends to correlate with having the sort of neurotype that often comes with what's nowadays called the Delayed Sleep Phase "Syndrome".

There's a sexist part to it, too, of course.

Your point is valid, too. Just because one has done all-nighters to search for bugs for fun doesn't mean that it's a good idea to do the same for money. The recent idea of corporate "hackathons" is basically a cargo cult version of the genuine article. But having had a night-time experience with this stuff is, for Western AMAB people, currently still a moderately useful proxy for experience with programming enthusiasm, and thus, for programming skill. It tends to not be as useful for AFAB people — Western cultures have, in the relevant decades, more strongly forced diurnal living on young AFAB than AMAB folks, so while AFAB hackers often have had comparable experiences, they are significantly more likely to have happened outside night-time. But #ADHD, #autism, and #DSPS are still factors.

@JacquesC2

Where Wizards Stay Up Late - Katie Hafner

Where Wizards Stay Up Late chronicles the origins of the Internet, the most important communications breakthrough since the telephone.

Katie Hafner

@riley

> That's a relatively recent development, for some stupid reasons that you're probably aware of.

I don't know what you're alluding to.

> A part of the equation is, being good at creative programming tends to correlate with having the sort of neurotype that often comes with what's nowadays called the Delayed Sleep Phase "Syndrome".

I believe delayed sleep is often unhealthy and most people can change their sleeping times. So we should not be encouraging it.

@jaror You're incorrect. There's at least three major distinct preferred chronotypes among humans; the diurnal one has gained legal supremacy in parts of the Western world mostly for religious and religion-adjacent reasons. Diagnosable DSPS does have known adverse health factors associated with it, but there's good reasons to suspect that these are not inherent, but an outcome of having a sleep schedule different from the dominant leglly preferred one; effectively, a form of minority stress. If a nocturnal chronotype was legally dominant, minority stress would be likely to ghe other way. Perhaps unfortunately, doing this on a society-wide basis is uncommon;, with the only major 20th century example being Stalinist Russia, but, well, even if we could study that one's biochemical outcomes, there would have been a lot of hard-to-etricate confounding factors. The arguably next context closest to imposed nocturnal activity lifestyle involves shift work, mostly factory work, but because of legal preferences for diurnal activity are generally dominant, all major jurisdictions require shift most workers to be regularly switched between shifts, which seems to have adverse health factors of its own. It can also have a diagnosable name, the Shift Work Sleep Disorder.
All in all, the limited current knowledge suggests that, if the political decisions were different, a situation with the nocturnal chronotype being the legally preferred norm and people with the diurnal preference being diagnosable as Premature Sleep
Phase Disorder sufferers, with the asociated health rigsks largely similar to those currently associated with DSPS, with only the SAD risk — which is associated with sustained lack of sunlight exposure during one's waking hours — being significantly diffrent, would be entirely consistnt with human physiology.

Preference for a form of biphasic chronotype has legal protection in Spain, largely as an alternative to having to invent office air conditioners, and it's less studied than the other two ones. From wha we know, it is likely ha most people wih a biphasic preference have easier time adapting to either diurnal or nocturnal activity phase, and vce versa, so it is likely that these differences between one's internal preference and societal imposition lead to overall lower level of minority stress than the differences between living diurnally in a nocturnal-dominant society. Even the diagnostic criteria for a biphasic sleep to qualify as a 'syndrome' are harsher than those for a nocturnal chronotype to qualify as diagnosable DSPS. But really, we don't know enough about biphasic activity chronotypes, and More Study Is Needed(tm). It may be that genuine and stable biphasic prfrence is less common than either diurnal or nocturnal prefrence, but in light of the evidence for higher capability of mask, even the real prevalence of biphasic activity preference is not really known yet.

@riley Sustained lack of sunlight seems like a pretty big issue to me, though. Also, even if there are people able to live healthy nocturnal lives, we still shouldn't encourage everybody to do that because there are definitely also people who can't. And modern technology already pushes many people past their limits.

More importantly, however, I think we drifted from the original quote which (to me at least) promotes an irregular sleep schedule, which is definitely not healthy for anybody.

@jaror As for your first question, basically some simple-minded start-up-bros noticed around ca. 2010 that occasional all-nighter experience was kind of common among effective hackers, and, like the islanders enjoying all the fascinating cargo that their new friend John Frum brought in during the WWII, they erroneously postulated a causal link, and envisioned that if they made all their employees do regular all-nighters, everybody would be a particularly effective programmer. It really doesn't work that way, though; and unlike John Frum's friends saddened by the end of the war who had to build their own flight strips and their own control booths and their own radio antennae, from bamboo, who merely not get the cargo they're trying to attract, forcing people on regular diurnal shifts to also do all-nighters on a schedule bears worse health outcomes than either stable diurnal or stable nocturnal activity phase on their own.

But, on one hand, it's hard to measure a programmer's work product and easy to fool oneself to think that the last arbitrary change made things better, and on the scond hand, the start-up-bros tend to not see the health problems they cause to their employees as their problems, so the stupid practice has found wide followership among start-up-bros and, more recently, among some middle managers, and will probably not be abandoned until a major lawsuit finds it illegal enough to merit meaningful financial damages from a company practicing it.